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tim_wolf Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2006 Posts: 379 Location: Lancaster, PA
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Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:40 pm Post subject: Tonguing Trashing the Chops? |
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Earlier today I was reading a very old post, and this caught my eye (from Rich):
He (Doc) also told me that if I wasn't maintaining a solid four-legs of the inner embouchure that my jazz legato-tonguing was going to tear down everything that I'd been trying to build up.
I'm intrigued by this. The reason I'm wondering is the last few weeks I've been putting about an hour a day (in two 30 minute chunks) on my double tongue speed. I have an orchestral gig in a few weeks, and one piece has a lot of fast double tonguing (172) and my double tongue speed is pretty pathetic. This seems to be really trashing my chops. What's strange is what I'm doing is pretty simple: Four measures of sixteenth notes on low C (on C trumpet), very soft and very legato. I play four measures, then rest four. I'm not feeling fatigue whatsoever, and I obviously can't overdo mouthpiece pressure that low and soft.
So, is it possible that too much articulation work, despite it being low and soft, can trash the chops? If so, why? In reference to Rich's quote, why can jazz legato tonguing tear down if the legs aren't maintained? |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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What do you mean by trashing? Trashing how?
I know from experience that not balancing my practicing can wreck things pretty bad. Too much lip slurring and I get chest tension. Too much articulation and I get tongue and throat tension. Too much time spent in one particular register can be detrimental to others.
Also, I would not pin it at Low C but practice in other registers, maybe 16th note patterns over scales to keep balanced. Or take a song and play the melody subdivided into 16ths and keep it musical. A metronome is always helpful. A good way to keeo a sense of rhythm in pieces as well.
What piece are you going to play? _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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tim_wolf Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2006 Posts: 379 Location: Lancaster, PA
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Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Tpt_Guy wrote: | What do you mean by trashing? Trashing how?
I know from experience that not balancing my practicing can wreck things pretty bad. Too much lip slurring and I get chest tension. Too much articulation and I get tongue and throat tension. Too much time spent in one particular register can be detrimental to others.
Also, I would not pin it at Low C but practice in other registers, maybe 16th note patterns over scales to keep balanced. Or take a song and play the melody subdivided into 16ths and keep it musical. A metronome is always helpful. A good way to keeo a sense of rhythm in pieces as well.
What piece are you going to play? |
Basically my lips feel like crap and my endurance is down. It's weird; the only time they feel like this is on hard gigs where I have to push it and press too hard.
The piece is "Slalom" by Carter Pann. |
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deesson Regular Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2011 Posts: 35 Location: Long Island, NY
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Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Hi Tim,
In answer to your original post, apparently the trumpeter in question was relaxing a bit too much for the legato tonguing, that he did not maintain a solid four legs. Doc taught to always maintain identical mouthpiece placement for all tonguing and slurring in all registers. Coming off the four legs can cause all sorts of problems: lack of endurance, poor flexibility, poor range, forming multiple embouchures, inconsistency in all areas.
I suggest you read Doc's 35 points of the Pivot System.
Just because you're playing low notes doesn't mean to over-relax.
Doc had a saying, "relax doesn't mean collapse".
You should be maintaining a firmness in the lip roll and mouthcorners and consistent four legs for all your playing. |
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tim_wolf Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2006 Posts: 379 Location: Lancaster, PA
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Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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deesson wrote: | Hi Tim,
In answer to your original post, apparently the trumpeter in question was relaxing a bit too much for the legato tonguing, that he did not maintain a solid four legs. Doc taught to always maintain identical mouthpiece placement for all tonguing and slurring in all registers. Coming off the four legs can cause all sorts of problems: lack of endurance, poor flexibility, poor range, forming multiple embouchures, inconsistency in all areas.
I suggest you read Doc's 35 points of the Pivot System.
Just because you're playing low notes doesn't mean to over-relax.
Doc had a saying, "relax doesn't mean collapse".
You should be maintaining a firmness in the lip roll and mouthcorners and consistent four legs for all your playing. |
Actually what I need to do sometime is take a lesson with a Reinhardt expert and get typed, as well as learn some things. BTW, the person quoted is the moderator of this forum. I'm hoping he'll chime in with some words of wisdom. |
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BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
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Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Just back from ITG where I didn’t have a minute for anything but the Conference.
The reply from Tpt_Guy was outstanding. We have to balance everything we do. Too much of any one thing can ruin other areas of our playing if we don’t include all aspects in our playing or practice days.
But, as the Moody Blues put it, it’s a question of balance. If my gig has me playing a lot of high stuff, I need to be practicing low stuff to balance it out. If my gig has me playing a lot of low stuff, I need to be practicing some high stuff (including, of course, some compression). If my gig has me doing a lot of tonguing, I need to balance that out with some sustained (cantabile) work in the practice room, and so forth.
When I got to Doc, I placed slightly off to the right yet I pointed my horn straight ahead, thus I had virtually no legs on the right side most of the time. When Doc told me “if I wasn’t maintaining a solid four-legs of the inner embouchure that my jazz legato-tonguing was going to tear down everything that I’d been trying to build up,” (from the OP), I asked what I could practice that wouldn’t tear down my chops. Doc said I could practice my jazz legato tongue! I was miffed at the time, but later I understood that the damage was due to not establishing and maintaining my four legs.
I am still quite the work in progress and more motivated than ever to practice more and get better than ever after hearing all the great playing I heard at ITG! _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz |
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BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
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Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Tonguing Trashing the Chops? |
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tim_wolf wrote: | I have an orchestral gig in a few weeks, and one piece has a lot of fast double tonguing (172) and my double tongue speed is pretty pathetic. This seems to be really trashing my chops. What's strange is what I'm doing is pretty simple: Four measures of sixteenth notes on low C (on C trumpet), very soft and very legato. I play four measures, then rest four. I'm not feeling fatigue whatsoever, and I obviously can't overdo mouthpiece pressure that low and soft.
So, is it possible that too much articulation work, despite it being low and soft, can trash the chops? If so, why? In reference to Rich's quote, why can jazz legato tonguing tear down if the legs aren't maintained? |
Just wondering how it's going, Tim . . . let us know about your progress (hopefully it is progress and not further "trashing" of your chops).
I'm hoping that you understood the gist of some of the response you got and have been balancing low with high, loud with soft, tonguing with slurring, etc. _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz |
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tim_wolf Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2006 Posts: 379 Location: Lancaster, PA
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Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Tonguing Trashing the Chops? |
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BeboppinFool wrote: | tim_wolf wrote: | I have an orchestral gig in a few weeks, and one piece has a lot of fast double tonguing (172) and my double tongue speed is pretty pathetic. This seems to be really trashing my chops. What's strange is what I'm doing is pretty simple: Four measures of sixteenth notes on low C (on C trumpet), very soft and very legato. I play four measures, then rest four. I'm not feeling fatigue whatsoever, and I obviously can't overdo mouthpiece pressure that low and soft.
So, is it possible that too much articulation work, despite it being low and soft, can trash the chops? If so, why? In reference to Rich's quote, why can jazz legato tonguing tear down if the legs aren't maintained? |
Just wondering how it's going, Tim . . . let us know about your progress (hopefully it is progress and not further "trashing" of your chops).
I'm hoping that you understood the gist of some of the response you got and have been balancing low with high, loud with soft, tonguing with slurring, etc. |
It's going well Rich. First of all, the piece I was freaking out over turned out very well. At the first rehearsal I found out I was by far not the only one having difficulties. I talked to my conductor when I arrived, and he just laughed and said he'd already gotten several phone calls. He found a tempo that still produced the intent of the composer, but slow enough we could all play it.
What I learned in my practice was invaluable. I have the notation software Sibelius on my computer. I notated a very simple exercise of four measures of 16th notes on a second line "G" and played along. I very quickly discovered that I was, especially on K attacks, going very flat. For some reason, I was letting my chops get very loose. Loose chops and an even normal amount of mouthpiece pressure doesn't work. Once I "firmed up," I had no further issues. The thing that I've done in the past that really trashed me was tonguing sixteenths a minute straight. Now I understand why this happened.
As many have already stated, we need to become our own teacher, although help from you Reinhardt guys is always beneficial. |
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