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V-shaped cup MPs.. [Old: Shallow MPs..]


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formerathas
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:06 am    Post subject: V-shaped cup MPs.. [Old: Shallow MPs..] Reply with quote

Hello.

I have posted a mouthpiece topic before. That was about what makes the difference about mouthpieces producing brighter sound.
I got many messages and decided to try a shallower mouthpiece.
Then I have played with Marcinkiewicz Shew 2 mouthpiece for several weeks, and I recognized that I would not be able to be accustomed to shallower mouthpieces.

I mainly play the 4th trumpet in the big band, so maybe shallower mouthpieces like Shew 2 were not suitable for that part. However, I totally couldn't play Shew 2 well although my peer who plays the 5th trumpet in the big band uses Schilke 15A4a really well.

Shew 2 was better for my endurance than Yamaha Shew Jazz, but sound and flexibility that I could get was far worse. Now I play with Shew Jazz with comfort.

Is there anyone who can't play shallower mouthpieces well? BTW I have relatively thin lips, and my lips didn't touch the inside cup with Shew 2, 1.75 or 1.5. The point is that I could not handle Shew 2 well.
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Last edited by formerathas on Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gandalfe
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You really might want to try one to see if it works for you. There are too many variables to this question to provide you with a meaningful answer.
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formerathas
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gandalfe wrote:
You really might want to try one to see if it works for you. There are too many variables to this question to provide you with a meaningful answer.


I forgot adding some information.
When I bought the Shew 2 mouthpiece at the trumpet store, I also tried Marcinkiewicz Shew 1.5, 1.75, Yamaha Shew Lead, and Marcinkiewicz Mic Gillette model. To be honest, each one was felt like the same.

Of course I would have to try others, but I'm afraid if other shallower mouthpieces would also be felt like similar, uncomfortable for me.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not easy to play a shallow mouthpiece. It takes development of a different kind. Basically you need to strengthen the muscles of the lips that keep your you lips from protruding out. If you do strengthen that, your sound and fexibility will come back. Sound and flex will also be improved on your deep mouthpiece as well. Even after you get accustomed to the shallow piece you sound will be brighter than your deep piece of course. If you don't want a bright sound use the deep. Along with the brighter sound you will have an easier time playing very loud in the upper register once you train the lips to work with the shallow piece. It takes about a year or even longer. Most people do this when they are in college or high school. It is a bit tough to do if you are a working professional gigging every day.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want a brighter sound I'd advise you to go incrementally shallower than your existing piece. I can't play any of the pieces you've mentioned for long.

FWIW it seems that the term bottoming out is a bit misleading. Players that struggle with shallower gear don't always touch the bottom of the cup. Often it relates to an alpha angle/undercut that is too restrictive.

GR claims to have a lot to offer players who want to go shallower but have trouble with the standard offerings.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It took me 3 months I think to really learn to play an MF style rim and the Candoli Marcinkiewicz (similar rim to the MF). It definitely made me a more efficient player. If you're sure it's not lip protrusion, then u may want to try the following:
Ex.1+3 of 'Goldman's Daily Embouchure Studies'. These are long tones from low C to high C with crescendos and decrescendos. They are great for smooth airflow and developing great aperture control. He recommens going from pp-f-pp - but I get better results keeping my 'f' a little less - like pp-mf/f-pp.

Do the PETE exercise the way I describe in the last thread on PETE ijn the 'other toys' forum.

Get and study Lynn Nicholson's 'Got High Notes?' video. Experiment with what works for you.

Get Pops' Tensionless Playing book and vids - experiment w what works for you.

Best of luck! Lex
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brassmusician
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't take the Shew 2 as an exemplar of all shallow trumpet mouthpieces. Apart from the Shew Jazz, I found his rim designs a little uncomfortable and could not play them well. But I have found success with schilke 12A4a and can play 15a4a too. So don't think you can't play shallow trumpet mouthpieces, you need to try a few more. You could try a Wick 3E or 4E and even a bach 7E although they have big backbores. The rim style is quite different to the Shew Marcink pieces.
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hackney_wick
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't like any Shew-type mouthpiece I have tried. The problem is the alpha angle (mentioned above), rim (mentioned above) and backbore, all three in combination seem to be fighting each other (especially the Yamaha Shew Lead) and I can't get good sound or consistent articulations. That's down to me given that so many great musicians use these pieces.

I have soft fleshy lips, I probably could learn to play on a Shew but there are much better options for me personally. They include S and SV cups on the Reeves 40 even with the tight 692sL backbore (actually a bit too wide a rim for my taste), Warburton 8-10 even with a 3-5 backbore and Loud/Patrick 91/93/95. These are all narrower than the Shew and may have smaller cup volume for the most part but I find them all comfortable because they do not have the issues mentioned above. I even get on better with (but have not tried to seriously play) the narrow, shallow E16 Candoli compared to the Shew.

On the other hand I can't play Reeves or Laskey ES cups of any diameter I've tried without bottoming out.

So I don't think formerathas should conclude he won't like or can't play shallow mouthpieces. It's complicated.
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formerathas
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate all your comments.
Well there seems to be two different aspects, practice and gear.

Seriously I got surprised that some people don't like Marcin Shew pieces because I heard that many professional players use them (of course I understand everyone has different chops, styles and preferences). That fact gave me some inspiration.
Although I maybe need to struggle with a shallow one for 3 months or 1 year or years, also I might need to try some different shallow pieces.
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islandtrumpeter
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently had somewhat of a mouthpiece safari myself in searching for a shallower "brighter" piece for lead playing. I always loved my 3C style mouthpieces, but felt that my sound was too dark to carry a section, and my attempts to brighten my sound turned into over-blowing. I know your mouthpiece size likely varies but Austin Custom Brass has a great number of options and Trent Austin is a great guy to work with. I play on his 3DS piece, which is slightly smaller in diameter and is shallower than a standard 3C for sure, but it allows for a larger variety of colors: I can solo on this piece and sound warm, but when I want to put a little more sizzle into the sound, it allows me to do so. I'm sure this can be said for many pieces, but I would recommend maybe looking into a CS or DS option in a diameter comparable to yours. (Sorry for my advertising of ACB, I'm just quite content with their pieces at the moment).
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the op really want to play a shallower mpc, or does he just need to be heard? Usually that's the problem on that chair, but a deep mpc facilitates the crisp accurate attacks in the low register that you need to play that book.

Get a Callet Superchops or a Calicchio 1S/2, you'll be heard then!
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of Marcinkiewicz rims have softer bites - Getting closer to more of the MF rim style so it takes some efficiency to play them well. The Candoli Marcink is very close to the MF rim style. I think the Shew 2 is a good jazz mouthpiece. The Yamaha JAZZ mouthpiece is quite a bit bigger in diameter (like a 3C) and more of a bowl shaped cup. I teach jazz and trumpet part time at a college in my area and I have had a number of students switch to the Yamaha Shew Lead for their big band stuff. This is a big band where the rhythm section is amplified and the horns aren't miked.. And there could be 2 to 3 players on each part.. So you can imagine the volume levels.. Especially since we usually rehearse in a big auditorium or concert hall.

A lot of these students are coming off a 5c or 7c.. When they came in for the camp this summer - the older players already hipped them to the Shew Lead when they were complaining about the volume in the big band.

But, for students with really thick lips, I usually recommend a Marcinkiewicz Roy Roman model. For students with thinner lips, I like to see them on a Yamaha 7a4 or 5a4 for the loud big band stuff. All these pieces are usually pretty cheap used.
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formerathas
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finally I began to think that Shew 2 is not so shallow (as some of you said), but its cup shape is different from mouthpieces that I have played. Shew 2 has a so-called "v" shaped cup, but many of mouthpieces that I've used have bowl-shaped cups. I felt some efficiency when playing Shew 2 anyway even though I could not get satisfied with its sound and flexibility.
I mean, if I get accustomed to a piece whose cup is v shaped, I might get endurance (efficiency), also sound and flexibility. So I have to change this topic title to "V-shaped cup Mouthpieces..".
Thank you.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love v cups! I find them more versatile, and (most) yield a bigger dynamic range for me, too. I can color my sound better, and play with better control. Sometimes I encounter a v cup that doesn't do all that, but backs up on me and limits volume, which wouldn't work in the playing situation the OP is discussing. So if you find one of those, don't conclude all v cups do that.
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formerathas
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
I love v cups! I find them more versatile, and (most) yield a bigger dynamic range for me, too. I can color my sound better, and play with better control. Sometimes I encounter a v cup that doesn't do all that, but backs up on me and limits volume, which wouldn't work in the playing situation the OP is discussing. So if you find one of those, don't conclude all v cups do that.


I see.. Anyhow I'm getting up for trying some other v cup peaces.
In the college big band, I sometime need to play the same part of the tune loudly again and again. So the efficiency that v cups give is important to save my chops :)
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burnhamd
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:39 pm    Post subject: V-Cups to Try Reply with quote

Here are some I have been recently playing and really like them.

The TS is not a shallow mouthpiece as some may think. It is a great piece for commercial work and you can do high register work on it as well. ....
https://www.legendsbrass.com/legends-mf-fbl-ts-613-trumpet-mouthpiece.html

The TM is a deep mouthpiece with the same rim and diameter. It is a great piece for concert band or orchestra just a bit deeper.
https://www.legendsbrass.com/legends-mf-fbl-tm-613-trumpet-mouthpiece.htm

This piece is a blend of a V cup and traditional cup. Great for extreme high register work.
https://www.legendsbrass.com/legends-mf-hg.html

Dan
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I love v cups! I find them more versatile, and (most) yield a bigger dynamic range for me, too. I can color my sound better, and play with better control. Sometimes I encounter a v cup that doesn't do all that, but backs up on me and limits volume, which wouldn't work in the playing situation the OP is discussing. So if you find one of those, don't conclude all v cups do that.


You tell 'em Raze! Don't nobody better mess with Raze..Or you'll have to answer to me!

Quote:
The TM is a deep mouthpiece with the same rim and diameter. It is a great piece for concert band or orchestra just a bit deeper.
https://www.legendsbrass.com/legends-mf-fbl-tm-613-trumpet-mouthpiece.htm


Dan, I don't have the TS, but I do have the TM FBL.. I think it's an awesome, awesome sounding jazz piece..Yeah, it's a deep V, but the straight V makes it play easily in all registers - at least for me.

I'm experimenting with Derek's take on the Al Cass 3X5 now. It has a killer, big, fat lead sound. It's a little bigger than I'm used to at .617 but, if I can get used to it, maybe I can get him to put a TM cup on a 'Cass' 3 rim for a great small group jazz piece. All the very best, Lex
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd second a Reeves 40S - absolutely killer piece, the combination of rim profile, ID and undercut/alpha makes it easy to avoid bottoming out on and yet it's an awesome high-register piece.

The 40C is my all-round piece and quite a V-shaped cup too - medium depth, but can still get quite bright when pushed and the response is incredible.
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burnhamd
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:42 pm    Post subject: V-Cups Reply with quote

Lex,
I'm with you on that. I love the TM and the TS is even better. I love how both of them hug your lips. The TS makes the range a little easier than the TM. What I love about these V-Cups is how they sound. I am working on trying to get Derek to make one more version that is shallower than the TS. The TS is great for all ranges with a darker sound. It doesn't have that edgy bright sound like a lot of others but I absolutely love it.
Dan
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah the rims are GREAT! Let me know if Derek will do that for you. I'm interested too! Would love to have that feel but with a real bright, cutting sound as I play a lot of lead stuff without the benefit of mikes..and even when I do have mikes, sometimes they are subpar. Best, Lex
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