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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EBjazz wrote:
Is there a video where I can see this Rich?

Eb


I just tried Skyping you to show you.



Click on this picture to look at my chops close up.


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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't tell where you place from there. Take the same pic with a mouthpiece in position and chops fully formed. You could even be buzzing or playing. Not on Skype at present.

Eb
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EBjazz wrote:
Can't tell where you place from there. Take the same pic with a mouthpiece in position and chops fully formed. You could even be buzzing or playing. Not on Skype at present.

Eb


If you zoom in, you can see that the top ring is way less than half a circle (I play a little off to my right).

Here's another one (sorry I'm not a better-looking man):



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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, need to see a mouthpiece on chops.

Eb
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EBjazz wrote:
Sorry, need to see a mouthpiece on chops.

Eb

You'll see less this way:


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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not in the red by my standards. As long as no red shows above the rim, you are fine. So far, I've never seen a player who plays in the red by my definition that does not have some problems.

Eb
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EBjazz wrote:
Not in the red by my standards. As long as no red shows above the rim, you are fine. So far, I've never seen a player who plays in the red by my definition that does not have some problems.

Eb

I think it's okay to remind people that this is the Reinhardt Forum, and you are essentially a Claude Gordon guy. I have no idea how you can say that, but that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Doc Reinhardt showed me a picture of Buddy Childers playing, and good grief, he hardly used any upper lip!

Anyway, Doc Reinhardt's "standards" and yours are obviously different, so let's call a truce, alright?
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got inspired by this kid's energy and enthusiasm! He's clearly struggling, and I remember, before I took a great lesson with Chris LaBarbara (Mr. Hollywood), how I would think flabby chops, or at least looooose chops might be a way to go. It's not, and getting your chops together... not your tongue but the lips, together, forming an embouchure to play on before you do anything was a revelation for me. One of those simple gestures that changes playing life. Not tense, but together, and get the tongue outta there!

.02,

ed
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BeboppinFool wrote:
EBjazz wrote:
Not in the red by my standards. As long as no red shows above the rim, you are fine. So far, I've never seen a player who plays in the red by my definition that does not have some problems.

Eb

I think it's okay to remind people that this is the Reinhardt Forum, and you are essentially a Claude Gordon guy. I have no idea how you can say that, but that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Doc Reinhardt showed me a picture of Buddy Childers playing, and good grief, he hardly used any upper lip!

Anyway, Doc Reinhardt's "standards" and yours are obviously different, so let's call a truce, alright?


So does that mean I can't post here? I'm just trying to learn and I've never mentioned Claude. You say you can help someone who plays in the red without changing their embouchure. I'd like to know how and see some of the results.

Eb
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EBjazz wrote:
So does that mean I can't post here? I'm just trying to learn and I've never mentioned Claude. You say you can help someone who plays in the red without changing their embouchure. I'd like to know how and see some of the results.

Eb

It's great for you to post here, but when you say things like, "So far, I've never seen a player who plays in the red by my definition that does not have some problems," that's when I have to step in and point out that you are not Doc Reinhardt (which is important since we're in the Reinhardt Forum), and also remind you that he showed me a picture of a highly successful player who played way down in the red.

Your definition(s) is/are not the same as what Doc taught, that's all I'm trying to say. And it's no coincidence that he agreed with very little of what Claude Gordon taught, by the way.



By the way, I don't think the view from the outside tells even half of the story most of the time. That's one thing Doc proved with his transparent mouthpieces.
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK. So it's possible to have a low placement and not be in the red if the top lip is turned in. Buddy Childers is like this
So are a number of players like Wynton, Clifford, Lee.

Eb

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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BeboppinFool wrote:
...and also remind you that he showed me a picture of a highly successful player who played way down in the red.

I'd like to see this picture. I searched for pictures of Buddy Childers hoping to see exactly what you're talking about, but it was fruitless.

Your definition(s) is/are not the same as what Doc taught, that's all I'm trying to say. And it's no coincidence that he agreed with very little of what Claude Gordon taught, by the way.

If they're using different definitions, they may have agreed on more than it seemed. Misunderstood communication has caused many a dispute.

That being said, I am the one who recommended the OP post here based on his statement that he's an upstream player. Looking at his video and seeing his facial structure, jaw position, overbite, etc., he does not look like an upstream player. If this is true, then his mpc placement is far too low to work with a downstream embouchure, as there is not enough of the upper lip free to vibrate. So, assuming this is true, how would Doc handle someone playing with an incorrect embouchure? Surely, surely you're aware of the problems inherent in playing with a wrong embouchure type for one's anatomy, so how would Doc have corrected it?

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bach_again
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Love how off topic this has gone.

Rich gave some solid advice - go take a lesson with him for crying out loud. He CAN show you the stuff to work on.

I don't know who said this player was upstream, but it looks like a IIIB to me, with some serious placement/balance issues.

To the OP:

Buy:
Reinhardt Routines
Focal Point

By Rich Willey.

They are superb books.

Take a lesson from Rich, he is excellent. Furthermore, if you wanna learn to play, take lessons!! Take one from Chris La Barbera too. These guys know chops backwards. You won't fix this via forums, you just won't.

Mike

PS In 2007 (I think) I took a lesson with Rich. I had an extremely inconsistent upper register. Go listen to my clips now. It's not perfect, and it's not often easy, but its exponentially better than it was. And I have had my share of chop issues. Believe me. People like Rich and Chris have helped me greatly!!
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I met with Aiden (Flerb) via Skype on Tuesday (or was it Wednesday?). At this point, he has something to go on and made some dramatic improvement during the course of our 15-minute Skype meeting. He and I will meet again, informally, sometime in the next week or so to see how placing on an embouchure formed with almost buzzing firmness is (hopefully) helping and even transforming his playing.

The picture that Doc showed me is not online anywhere (that I could find). I would recognize it instantly. The fuzzy one that Eric posted does not show what I saw in Doc's studio.

The bottom line is that none of us can say for sure that something that looks strange to us (i.e., contrary to the way we were taught) is right or wrong. The beauty of Doc Reinhardt's teaching is that he treated each individual according to their unique physical makeup, not according to some preordained way that things "should" be.

P.S. Thanks, Mike . . . you have no idea how happy it makes me that you have been making great progress in the past 10 years!
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Type3B
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First let me say that I am in awe of FlerbMcgurb. This kind of open, honest seeking to improve one's playing, without a hint of ego, is refreshing and inspiring. In my personal experience, most of my mechanical (psychological and emotional are another story!) problems have been due to mouthpiece placement. When I first when to see Doc in Philly in the late 1970s, he said to me, basically, "Put the horn up there and make a noise. Find a place where you can make a nice sound and play higher, no matter how strange it might seem." That was the way he led me to let the mouthpiece/horn find where it wanted to go on my particular physiology. Later, Dave Sheetz emphasized the exact same thing. They taught me that I was and--although I have learned a lot--still am, in some ways, making this much harder than it really is. For me, the key has been to relax and avoid the lethal "wind up"--the endless mouthpiece placement tinkering--and trust the horn and my body to do the right thing. Perhaps, after all, it is a matter of mind and emotion--to trust the horn and your body. Sorry for rambling, just thinking out loud. FlerbMcgurb, stay with it, you're on the way, and you've made my day!
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BeboppinFool wrote:

P.S. Thanks, Mike . . . you have no idea how happy it makes me that you have been making great progress in the past 10 years!


Thanks Rich - you helped me a lot! I hope to catch up with you in a lesson sometime. I remember you saying you would like to see how I progressed as we had similar chops. I still have some issues, but working away on it!

And yeah - Type3B - you are on the money about Flerb; wanting to get better is essential!!

Mike
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First let me thank all of you for the kind words about my teaching. Those of you who have taken a lesson know that I truly care about helping the fella play his best. Nothing else matters. I sell an hour lesson, and I have yet to finish one in an hour , they all go over by 30 or 40 minutes sometimes even two hours!!
I don't care about the time, I want to make sure that when the lesson ends the student knows three important things...

1 how to form the lips correctly
2 how to place correctly
3 how to do the above without molesting or moving anything by using his mouthpiece rim, and "legs".

I know the picture Rich is speaking of in Docs studio. It looks like Buddy is playing on his chin.

I have had the honor/pleasure of sitting right next to Buddy on Sinatra Jrs band. Its my nature to look at everyone's chops, but you just can't stare at a guy like Buddy. To say he was a little "testy" is being nice. Plus by then he had a huge beard. But yes, he was WAY in the red and sounded wonderful.

I watched a few seconds of this kids video and he looks IIIB. But hes got several other bad habits going on that I won't go into here.

Always remember that when a player corrects his bad habits his type could easily change. Thats why Doc put "for now" on all our orientation sheets.

I think Ed Mann put it best when he said (I'm paraphrasing here) that things changed for the better for him when he learned that you need to play firm, not crazy tight, just firm. That in and of itself sums up alot of trumpet playing.

Are Rich is right, you wanna really screw up a guy, just move that mp way up under his nose if you think hes placing too low. There is a crap shoot of a chance he could wind up a nice IIIA, but most of the time you will throw that poor bastard into a spin he may never get out of.

Take care everybody,

Chris LaBarbera
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