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jhatpro
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Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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 Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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For the longest time I fiddled with the slides on my 1917 Conn New Wonder trying to get it to stay in the green at 440. The needle was jumping all over the place. Then I set the tuner to 452 and bingo! Perfect!
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Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Richard III
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Joined: 22 May 2007
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Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:22 am Post subject: |
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I'm bringing back this old thread because of some issues I am having with my old cornets. The D and Eb especially at the top of the staff are flat. I'm guessing this is because the slides are longer in these old cornets to make the low C# and D more in tune.
What do you think of tuning a little sharp for the open notes to make the fingered ones up there closer? By the way, the easiest to tune older cornet I have is the Conn 80A.
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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jhatpro
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Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Vintage cornet intonation issues are the trade-off for the joy of playing horns that are older than you are.
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Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Richard III
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Joined: 22 May 2007
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Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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So do you do anything different when tuning?
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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jhatpro
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Joined: 17 Mar 2002
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Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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I pay more attention to the tuner. A Snark on the bell helps a lot.
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Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Richard III
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Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2655
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:04 am Post subject: |
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The quality of the sound is also important. On some of my cornets, I can play them in tune but the quality of the note suffers. They are tighter slotted ones. I have two that are the finalists in this derby. The Roth Reynolds Professional which is a King Master clone and the Conn 80A. More work to be done.
Side note, the H. N. White Cleveland Superior has such a middle of the road sound but bending the notes to be in tune really degrades the tone. Yes, I do have a modern shepherd's crook cornet also that pretty much plays in tune but shepherd's crooks just don't get the sound for me. Maybe I need to have a blind test with friends and get a consensus.
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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Dale Proctor
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Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 9364
Location: Heart of Dixie
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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It could be a mismatch problem with your cornet and the mouthpiece you're using on it.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Richard III
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Joined: 22 May 2007
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Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:17 am Post subject: |
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Good point but I use the same mouthpiece on eight different cornets and the same issue is there. Before someone says anything, switching to a different mouthpiece does not make it go away either.
One of the issues might be my ears. I might be overly sensitive. I'm bothered by smaller variances in pitch than many of my fellow band mates.
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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Dale Proctor
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:53 am Post subject: |
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What mouthpiece are you using?
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scottfsmith
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Sometimes its just more time needed on the lipping. Small adjustments can take an off-sounding lipped note to a good-sounding one but it takes a great deal of practice to refine the sound. The more problematic case is when its extremely hard to get any in-tune sound at all out, those you can't do much about.
For the mouthpiece make sure to try a period piece or you could be fighting something there as well.
Also, depending on the cornet you may need the valve slides to be out a bit, I don't think I have a single old cornet that I keep all three valve slides all the way in on. Get a tuner and check and adjust the intervals that each valve is producing. If the intervals are not wide enough on the valves you may have the main tuning slide too far out as a (poor) compensation for that.
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Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces |
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Richard III
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Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:10 am Post subject: |
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Cleveland C
[img] clevelandcmouthpiece by genevie7, on Flickr[/img]
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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Richard III
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Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2655
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| scottfsmith wrote: | Sometimes its just more time needed on the lipping. Small adjustments can take an off-sounding lipped note to a good-sounding one but it takes a great deal of practice to refine the sound. The more problematic case is when its extremely hard to get any in-tune sound at all out, those you can't do much about.
For the mouthpiece make sure to try a period piece or you could be fighting something there as well.
Also, depending on the cornet you may need the valve slides to be out a bit, I don't think I have a single old cornet that I keep all three valve slides all the way in on. Get a tuner and check and adjust the intervals that each valve is producing. If the intervals are not wide enough on the valves you may have the main tuning slide too far out as a (poor) compensation for that. |
It is a period mouthpiece and the one that fits the cornets best. Certain notes play flat and I think it is due to it being old and the adjustments made so that low C# and D are more in tune, as with most old horns. Lipping up is a poor way to fix it, so having the main tuning slide a little more in works. Open notes are slightly sharp and relaxing into them works fine. The fingered notes are not quite as flat and easier to bring into tune.
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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scottfsmith
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | | Lipping up is a poor way to fix it |
Whats wrong with lipping up? It has a long and distinguished history in valveless trumpet playing. Its harder than lipping down but with practice the tone will improve.
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Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces |
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Richard III
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Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2655
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| scottfsmith wrote: | | Richard III wrote: | | Lipping up is a poor way to fix it |
Whats wrong with lipping up? It has a long and distinguished history in valveless trumpet playing. Its harder than lipping down but with practice the tone will improve. |
In this case it was a hairs breadth away from the next partial. Not so bad if I wanted a shake on that note, but for note quality not so good. I also find lipping up to result in a much poor quality note than down.
To put this to rest, I just went back to my favorite cornet, pushed in the tuning slide a bit and pulled out the third valve slide a bit. Many notes are right on and those that aren't, are correctable with good sound. Thanks to all for your suggestions.
For others it is a reminder that open notes are only a small part of your playing palette and tuning all the notes is equally important.
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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