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Carol Brass as a first horn?


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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MacMichael wrote:
jgadvert wrote:


Absurd to pay (an irresponsible for someone to suggest) paying hundreds more for a brand most people have never heard of...unless they read Trumpet Herald. And wait till you have to try to sell one of these brands if your daughter decides to not play anymore.

A what? These people really piss me off...have for years now.


If you are referring to Carol Brass horn in your rant here, you seem to ignore the fact that they have become pretty well-known for their quality in the last 10 years or so. So in the case you mean CB trumpets you are not right in my opininon using such a harsh tone in your post.


+1

Brad
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jgadvert
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ephemere wrote:
Thanks to all of you for the help and advice!

I haven't had good luck shopping for a used horn. Folks on craigslist seem to want about 2x the going rate, and every single ebay listing I was following sold for much more than I was willing to pay. Maybe it's just that time of year.... That said, jgadvert has got me looking at craigslist again this morning. I do see an unidentified Bach that I might be able to get for cheap—marked "Bach USA" on the bell, otherwise I can't tell what model/vintage.

Also, while my daughter doesn't need a shiny new horn, I draw the line at sending her to and from school carrying one of those beat-up Olds Ambassador cases. That's just not going to fly with the 4th-grade set.

I really appreciate the feedback!



Bravo. If I knew your town or city. I would searched Craigslist and given you direct leads. Here in New York (any day of the week). I can find a PERFECTLY FINE Yamaha or Bach or Olds Ambasador student horn that is shiny enough, playable and ready to roll. and again, you can (with a short drive likely) go see it for yourself. Again, for 200 bucks or less.

In fact, these are almost a dime a dozen. The market for good quality used student horns is plentiful. Tons of beutiful Bachs and Yamahas are sitting in closets cause the child decided to not continue to play anymore.

Secondly, in my many years as a TH member I have never directed my "rants" (give me a break man) towards anyone or any brand of product. It's that type of negative crap that has caused us to lose so many fantastic people over the years participating.

I hope I have done some good here and helped a man to not waist money that could better be spent elsewhere.
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trumpethead
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's no secret that I'm a massive fan of CarolBrass horns. Simply because they are great instruments and outstanding value-for-money. They are also highly regarded and sought after in my experience and easy to sell if that's what you ever need to do.

I did buy a cheap Thomann cornet and for the money, is an excellent instrument, although I wouldn't recommend cornet for a beginner.

I do agree that there are plenty of cheaper reliable trumpets you could buy second-hand that would be fine too, especially since your daughter is so young.
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:17 pm    Post subject: Band director Reply with quote

ephemere have you talked to your daughter's music teacher/band director and asked what brands are played in the schools? She may know of used trumpets for sale by former students.

Although 1st slide thumb saddle may not be needed, still like them. There isn't one on my Conn 77 B trumpet yet. Although I do agree, need a 3rd slide ring.

The two craigslists in my area have overpriced trumpets, many have been on there for over a year.

Yesterday I was talking to one of my daughter's friend's mom. Her daughter started three weeks ago on trumpet. She has yet to clean it. So told her the steps to clean it. Also I said water keys need to be cleared each time and mouthpiece rinsed.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 'hi end' CB I owned had a steel bell bead. If this is damaged you repairman will have 1 hell of a time doing much with it. They are fairly good horns in my opinion and were much better years ago at 1000$ less.

I personally have 6 vintage horns I would sell for half what you will pay for a new CB and 3 are better looking. Not trying to sell my horns to you, but go to the musicians hall and get the name of a trumpet player, hopefully one who works, and pay him 50$ to help you find a horn. He will know what's in the area and unless he has one he wants to sell will probably give unbiased advice. I think it takes a lot of experience in your own playing and with a lot of different horns to make a superior choice in horns even when spending 3-5000$. Horns are like cars as far as depreciation of new ones and no one is saying CB makes the best out there, many still tout affordable vintage at around 1000$ as being best. Also 9 year olds are like 🦋's. Best thing is to RENT what everyone else in the band gets until she shows some talent. Unless you just like to own pretty things

Rod
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ephemere
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to share your expertise and advice with me.

After another day of ebay surfing and craigslist dead-ends, I'm inclined to save the world of vintage horns for the day when somebody in my family develops enough talent to pick them—and has the time to wait for the right thing to come along.

Rod Haney wrote:
Best thing is to RENT what everyone else in the band gets until she shows some talent.


The CB I'm considering costs same as renting a horn for two years. My daughter will be in this music program for two years, so if she drops out after that it makes more financial sense to own the horn at the end. Plus, we're a musical family with a number of instruments around, and I'd like to give the trumpet a shot myself.

Rod Haney wrote:
Unless you just like to own pretty things


I don't care what the horn looks like, but it needs to be in good condition, and the case needs to look like it didn't come out of the dumpster. Hey, 4th-grade girls can be vicious. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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MacMichael
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jgadvert wrote:
in my many years as a TH member I have never directed my "rants" (give me a break man) towards anyone or any brand of product. It's that type of negative crap that has caused us to lose so many fantastic people over the years participating.

I hope I have done some good here and helped a man to not waist money that could better be spent elsewhere.


Your tone is deliberately hurtful again including vulgar language which is not to everybody´s liking. At least not to mine. No wonder some people have ceased to post here recently.

If one stays with the neutral facts, though, I doagree that a decent Olds Ambassador is a good-anough horn for a 9-year-old girl, and yes, kds can be sloppy in their handling of instruments, so a brand new CB trumpet might not be the best of all ideas (even if my own son started out on a CB 5000 when he was ten, but what do I know).

Still there is no need for harshness when it comes to discussions. And I still not see where I have spread anything negative in the first place.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think something else affects the decision. Happiness.

If her teacher is happy with the horn she can be happy
If her friends are happy with the horn she can be happy
If she likes the horn she can be happy

If any of these are wrong she wont be happy. If she is not happy she wont want to play the instrument and may give up.

Ask her teacher what everyone else is using and consult her as well. give her the respect she would love to have by letting her take decisions and choose for herself, of course guide her into a good decision.

Nurture her desire to play and she will reward you. Impose something on her because it is the best you can find and she may be disappointed.
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ephemere
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
give her the respect she would love to have by letting her take decisions and choose for herself, of course guide her into a good decision.


That's great advice, and I'm totally with you there. Over the past week I've been showing my daughter pictures of beat-up vintage horns, and she says, "I'd be fine with that." She came home from school with advice from her teacher, which reduced to: "Tell your parents not to buy a $100 horn on amazon." I even told her about this thread.... I also explained about cornets, and she's warning me off that path. ("I held the trumpet up for a minute and a half, and it was fine.") I enjoy including her in these decisions. She's pretty excited to start playing. At school, they had all the kids try five instruments—trumpet, trombone, clarinet, flute, and violin. The music teacher sent home her recommendation(s) for each student, and then the student got to pick first/second/third choice, which doesn't have to follow the teacher's recommendation. (In this case, it was a match.) That seems like a reasonable way to do it. When I was her age, I picked saxophone without trying it because, I reasoned, "everyone likes the sax".

Ironically, I hated my sax but loved playing. In high school all my friends got Selmer Mark VIs while I stayed with my in-dire-need-of-an-overhaul second-hand budget horn. I remember borrowing a friend's Mark VI once, and it was like butter—so effortless to play. A kid who didn't love music as much as I did would probably have quit years before because of that stupid horn. I guess that experience is what drove me to make sure my kids have decent instruments. That said, a trumpet seems far less mechanically complicated than a sax; and as I have learned from my thread in the mouthpiece forum, certain pro trumpets might actually be harder for a beginner to play than a student model. I don't think that's true of saxophones.
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject: Trumpet practice Reply with quote

Happy to see that your daughter is excited to start playing. She is lucky to have a good teacher. Seems that she has a love of music. Does she read music?

Glad that music teachers are giving the students a choice instead of assigning the instruments.

Involving her in the buying of her trumpet is genius, will motivate her to practice. Practice seems to be the biggest hurdle for the beginning students.

Great advice Bflatman. "Nurture her desire to play and she will reward you " I will keep that in mind with my piano playing daughters.

jgadvert: I appreciate your enthusiastic advice and no nonsense style of writing.

Whenever she ready for private instructing, don't be afraid to change teachers. It has made a world of difference in my oldest daughter's approach to playing piano.
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Yuri!
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I remember borrowing a friend's Mark VI once, and it was like butter—so effortless to play. A kid who didn't love music as much as I did would probably have quit years before because of that stupid horn. I guess that experience is what drove me to make sure my kids have decent instruments. That said, a trumpet seems far less mechanically complicated than a sax; and as I have learned from my thread in the mouthpiece forum, certain pro trumpets might actually be harder for a beginner to play than a student model.

Yes, you'r right.
A year ago I bought for my son a student King 601 tempo (less than $100). It's very easy to play on it (easier than on my OLDS '79). I also have a new CB 4000h (as in the first message) - very nice and easy to blow horn.


Last edited by Yuri! on Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing we all need to remember here, myself included, and I teach a lot of beginners: as long as a kid has a functioning horn that is in good mechanical condition, new, used or rented, that should be adequate to start. Parents need to think “middle of the road” regarding a horn for their student, most any recognized brand of student level instrument in good playing condition should be fine. As we know, a beginner can’t tell the difference between a Bach Strad and a Yamaha 2335.

I see a lot of well-intentioned parents who spend WAY too much WAY too soon on a horn for their kid, thinking it will make things “easier” for a student. And kids being kids, even the conscientious ones are usually going to get the horn dented up and worse, I’ve seen really good kids actually drop their horn on the floor during a lesson. It happens, better to drop an Ambassador than an Adams.

Brad
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:28 am    Post subject: trumpet ??? Reply with quote

ephemere; what trumpet did you buy for your daughter?
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ephemere
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

I was going to follow up once the trumpet arrived, but I'll give an update now...

jondrowjf: To answer an earlier question of yours, my daughter does read music. She has been in a choir for several years and also takes piano lessons. Also, I did take your advice and checked the local parents for trumpets left behind by their kids.

I decided to go with the original plan of the Carol Brass CTR-4000H-YSS-L, but it may be a while before it arrives. In the meantime, yesterday was the first day of band class, and the school is loaning her an Olds while we wait for the CB to arrive. So we'll have a chance to compare the two horns.

I also got a Yamaha 11B4 mouthpiece right away, which was available from an Amazon marketplace seller for a negligible cost. My daughter has been practicing on it. I've been practicing, also (first time for me).

The suggestions to buy a used horn were well taken, but in the end I never found a deal I was comfortable with. I can return the CB for 30 days, so I have continued to monitor craigslist, ebay, and shopgoodwill. I bid on a few horns and lost. I also used nextdoor to find a few people in my neighborhood with a spare trumpet. For the most part, I've found that (1) sellers want a lot of money for their instruments, and (2) there seems to be a fair amount of bidding competition at this price point right now. I'm sure that if I had more time and patience, used would have been the most cost-effective option.

Thanks again to everyone for all the help. I'll post an update when the CB arrives.
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Yuri!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ephemere wrote:

I decided to go with the original plan of the Carol Brass CTR-4000H-YSS-L, but it may be a while before it arrives. In the meantime, yesterday was the first day of band class, and the school is loaning her an Olds while we wait for the CB to arrive. So we'll have a chance to compare the two horns.
I can return the CB for 30 days


I think you will be happy with CB and you will not have to return it
Inform us about your impressions.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ephemere wrote:
Hi all,

I was going to follow up once the trumpet arrived, but I'll give an update now...

jondrowjf: To answer an earlier question of yours, my daughter does read music. She has been in a choir for several years and also takes piano lessons. Also, I did take your advice and checked the local parents for trumpets left behind by their kids.

I decided to go with the original plan of the Carol Brass CTR-4000H-YSS-L, but it may be a while before it arrives. In the meantime, yesterday was the first day of band class, and the school is loaning her an Olds while we wait for the CB to arrive. So we'll have a chance to compare the two horns.

I also got a Yamaha 11B4 mouthpiece right away, which was available from an Amazon marketplace seller for a negligible cost. My daughter has been practicing on it. I've been practicing, also (first time for me).

The suggestions to buy a used horn were well taken, but in the end I never found a deal I was comfortable with. I can return the CB for 30 days, so I have continued to monitor craigslist, ebay, and shopgoodwill. I bid on a few horns and lost. I also used nextdoor to find a few people in my neighborhood with a spare trumpet. For the most part, I've found that (1) sellers want a lot of money for their instruments, and (2) there seems to be a fair amount of bidding competition at this price point right now. I'm sure that if I had more time and patience, used would have been the most cost-effective option.

Thanks again to everyone for all the help. I'll post an update when the CB arrives.


At least in my area, most of the Craigslist horns are listed at high to ridiculously high prices. Which doesn’t mean you can’t offer the seller less.

I think one reason for this is a lot of CL horns were bought for a kid who quit after a couple of years; they reason (usually incorrectly) that if they paid X amount for it a few years ago, it should still be worth much of the original price.

Brad
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:47 pm    Post subject: New trumpet Reply with quote

Excellent news. Your daughter will be happy with her Carol Brass CTR 4000H-YSSL Trumpet and the Yamaha 11 B 4 mouthpiece.

How is she enjoying playing the trumpet?.

Has anyone taught her to clean the mouthpiece, trumpet and general maintenance ?
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ephemere
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are both enjoying it!

The teacher has showed her some maintenance, but I don't think it's complete. It's on my TODO list to watch some youtube videos and read some internet articles.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interested in your comparison of the new CB vs the loaned Olds
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Raggerty
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ephemere wrote:
We are both enjoying it!

The teacher has showed her some maintenance, but I don't think it's complete. It's on my TODO list to watch some youtube videos and read some internet articles.
It's been mentioned many a time that regular valve cleaning is important for CB horns in the first few weeks.
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