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MP Gap, who knew?


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lexluther
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:03 am    Post subject: MP Gap, who knew? Reply with quote

Hi all, I thought I would share this with the community even though I'm sure it has been brought up many times before. I will try to make this short, so here goes. I play on a Marcinkiewicz E3/3C. I found a used one that happened to be cut for sleeves so I bought it. After acquiring a set of sleeves (2.5 to 6 in halfs), I started to play around with my two Trumpets. I tried to research what I should do as I had no idea what sleeves were about. I decided to try Stomvi's approach. With each Trumpet here is what I did.

1. Played a F Major scale with my current MP in front of a tuner
2. wrote down what notes were out of tune and how much
3. started with a 4 sleeve and went up first
4. My theory was if it got worse tuning wise I would reverse or go to the next sleeve

The results astounded me!

1. On my Bach, the uncut mouthpiece was badly out of tune. It got worse the higher number of sleeve I put on it. As I went lower in sleeve number, it got better. I ended up on a 2.5 and nearly all notes were close in tune. A drastic difference. I have ordered a #2 sleeve because I didn't have anything smaller than a 2.5. Once I receive it I will update my findings.

2. On my Yamaha the uncut mouthpiece was very close in tune on all notes. As I put on higher sleeves it got worse, also as I put on lower sleeves it got worse. I am at the conclusion that the uncut MP is gapped perfectly on the Yamaha.

I have redone these test multiple times and come to the same conclusions. What this tells me is that the receivers are completely different from manufacturer to manufacturer. I believe the gap absolutely makes a difference in how a horn plays. I am just a student and am no authority on the Trumpet, so please correct me if I am on the wrong track, it certainly wouldn't be the first time. It amazes me how such a minor tweak can have such an impact on tuning and sound. Neat stuff!
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your description of the process is exactly correct - well done for doing it so methodically and painstakingly, as you can see from your results, this is something thats well worth taking the time to work through and get right...

Can I ask/speculate something?

Was the Yamaha the clear favourite horn to use before you got the sleeved mouthpiece? (I'm expecting it was)
If so, was this as a result of the better intonation with the uncut mouthpiece making it more enjoyable to play (and/or giving you more consistent tone, better endurance, etc)?
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that all it affected - intonation?
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lexluther
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
Your description of the process is exactly correct - well done for doing it so methodically and painstakingly, as you can see from your results, this is something thats well worth taking the time to work through and get right...

Can I ask/speculate something?

Was the Yamaha the clear favourite horn to use before you got the sleeved mouthpiece? (I'm expecting it was)
If so, was this as a result of the better intonation with the uncut mouthpiece making it more enjoyable to play (and/or giving you more consistent tone, better endurance, etc)?


Both horns are outstanding. The Yamaha is new to me and I describe it as the nicest playing horn ever to touch my lips. Before I did this with the gap, there was no comparison between the two. Yamaha all the way. I still prefer the Yamaha, but the Bach is also a great horn and now plays just as good. I play them both every day.
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lexluther
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Is that all it affected - intonation?


I can't be sure, but it seems to me like the upper register is a little easier and more in tune.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Is that all it affected - intonation?


It could be read as if that's not the biggest deal in the world (I'm sure it wasn't your intention to portray that meaning!).... I'm not sure there's any more important element in terms of knock-on effects.

Poor intonation effects almost everything.
Better evenness of scale leads to better predictability and security, and hence to confidence and consistency; having to lip notes into tune effects timbre (lipped notes lose resonance), effects low-volume response (notes are hardest to lip at low volume), makes flexibilities more difficult and damages endurance.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm surprised you didn't experience an immediate shift in focus and balance/resistance, particularly with the Bach. In my experience with it, not every horn is as sensitive to gap adjustments, but that Bachs were pretty sensitive to it.

I've told my story here several times about how I became a believe in gap adjustments to dial in a horn/mouthpiece combination, but the bottom line is that the change was significant, and it was immediately noticeable.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lexluther wrote:
kehaulani wrote:
Is that all it affected - intonation?


I can't be sure, but it seems to me like the upper register is a little easier and more in tune.

Thanks.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, another question.

At 23.00 bucks an item, sample sleeves could quickly add up. Is there an inexpensive way to do this? Maybe, like four sleeves (and which ones?). What would one suggest?
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lexluther
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
I'm surprised you didn't experience an immediate shift in focus and balance/resistance, particularly with the Bach. In my experience with it, not every horn is as sensitive to gap adjustments, but that Bachs were pretty sensitive to it.

I've told my story here several times about how I became a believe in gap adjustments to dial in a horn/mouthpiece combination, but the bottom line is that the change was significant, and it was immediately noticeable.


I'm probably just not quite experienced enough to make the connection with focus and resistance, but what you say about being a significant change I totally agree with. The Bach plays much smoother, sounds better, and all around plays easier after the sleeve. Is that what you mean about focus and resistance?
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lexluther
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Well, another question.

At 23.00 bucks an item, sample sleeves could quickly add up. Is there an inexpensive way to do this? Maybe, like four sleeves (and which ones?). What would one suggest?


I was lucky and found them used. the nine I have 2, 2.5, 3 ,3.5 ,4, 4.5, 5, 5.5 and 6 would run $180.00 from Reeves (3 for $60.00). The plus side I guess is that once you have a set you can check any new horns you buy!
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Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never checked the intonation aspect of sleeves. What I did notice was a big change in response. When the gap is dialed in the horn rings with much less effort. Stepping away from the optimum gaps feels like adding consequentially more work.

I too scored a big set of sleeves from someone for relatively little $.

My impressions are based on a Bach 43/43 with a Schilke Symphony M3.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is what one of the greatest mouthpiece manufacturers on the planet has to say about gap and sleeves.
http://www.grmouthpieces.com/gap.html
I haven't seen any Chicago area trumpet player use sleeves.
R. Tomasek
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lexluther
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
Here is what one of the greatest mouthpiece manufacturers on the planet has to say about gap and sleeves.
http://www.grmouthpieces.com/gap.html
I haven't seen any Chicago area trumpet player use sleeves.
R. Tomasek


Thanks Vin for the link. As you well know, I have tried GR Mouthpieces. While I think they are a great company, it just didn’t work out for me. I am thankful that we Trumpet players have the choice of help from the likes of Bob Reeves and GR too! I believe there is no absolute answer for the aspiring musician. Choice is a good thing! These MP makers all know thier stuff! I know one thing though, there is at least one Trumpet player using sleeves in Chicagoland.
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Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
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Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not really familiar with what is a normal gap. If I was to buy four sleeves to check out the gap like done above, what sizes would be reasonable? Thanks.
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really enjoy my Monette pieces so I was skeptical about gap adjustments. Like GR, you'd probably never see one modified. But I have an old Maggio piece that needed some work and I decided to have it cut for sleeves. It's a shallow piece but I always played flat and stuffy in the upper register. I took it to Matt Frost and he did an excellent job. Since it's rare to need additional gap, I bought his #3 (no change) and his #1 (minimal gap). Again, I was skeptical but now I only use the #1 for the same reasons you mentioned. The difference is undeniable.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
Here is what one of the greatest mouthpiece manufacturers on the planet has to say about gap and sleeves.
http://www.grmouthpieces.com/gap.html
I haven't seen any Chicago area trumpet player use sleeves.
R. Tomasek


One of my mouthpieces is a GR I bought from a friend. I didn't care for it much when I first tried it. It played like the gap was too wide, though it was gapped like a Bach mpc. He sent it to be cut for sleeves and the dramatic improvement prompted me to buy it from him and it is now one of my primary pieces.

kehaulani wrote:
I'm not really familiar with what is a normal gap. If I was to buy four sleeves to check out the gap like done above, what sizes would be reasonable? Thanks.


Check out http://www.bobreeves.com/products/gap.htm

I recommend trying his paper trick to see if it makes any worthwhile changes.
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trumpet.trader
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought for years that mp gap was just mystique and a waste of time and money. It's the player not the equipment.

Then I ended up with a backbore I liked at was cut for sleeves and did some experimenting out of curiosity and I was astonished by the results. I never gained any range but found that articulations became more clean, evenness and intonation and overall sound color were all improved as I dialed in the right gap for me.

Now every mouthpiece I have is cut for sleeves and depending on which horn I play the sleeve I use can be dramatically different. So having a full set of sleeves I thought was expensive when I first bought them, but in the long run a great investment.
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lexluther
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I'm not really familiar with what is a normal gap. If I was to buy four sleeves to check out the gap like done above, what sizes would be reasonable? Thanks.

I believe it will be completely different on every Trumpet. If you were to buy a 3,4,5,and six I think you could at least determine what direction you need to go. Also I believe Bob Reeves includes one sleeve with the cut. I could be wrong on that one though.
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Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
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Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML
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trickg
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lexluther wrote:
trickg wrote:
I'm surprised you didn't experience an immediate shift in focus and balance/resistance, particularly with the Bach. In my experience with it, not every horn is as sensitive to gap adjustments, but that Bachs were pretty sensitive to it.

I've told my story here several times about how I became a believe in gap adjustments to dial in a horn/mouthpiece combination, but the bottom line is that the change was significant, and it was immediately noticeable.


I'm probably just not quite experienced enough to make the connection with focus and resistance, but what you say about being a significant change I totally agree with. The Bach plays much smoother, sounds better, and all around plays easier after the sleeve. Is that what you mean about focus and resistance?

That's pretty much what I mean. When the gap is dialed in, everything just pops - the horn responds quickly and everything feels very centered and balanced. Because it's dialed in, playing becomes much more efficient and effortless on the part of the player. Response and blow feel right, intonation is improved and the horn slots well.

When the gap isn't dialed in, it might feel open enough down low, but get increasingly stuffy up top, or worse (IMO) it feels like the horn is too open, and you can't get anything to push back against up top. It's like you have to force the horn to focus and the slots never quite seem to be where you think they should be, so you won't play as accurately, and it will have a negative effect on your endurance.
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- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
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