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lexluther Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2015 Posts: 108 Location: Northwest, Indiana
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:03 am Post subject: MP Gap, who knew? |
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Hi all, I thought I would share this with the community even though I'm sure it has been brought up many times before. I will try to make this short, so here goes. I play on a Marcinkiewicz E3/3C. I found a used one that happened to be cut for sleeves so I bought it. After acquiring a set of sleeves (2.5 to 6 in halfs), I started to play around with my two Trumpets. I tried to research what I should do as I had no idea what sleeves were about. I decided to try Stomvi's approach. With each Trumpet here is what I did.
1. Played a F Major scale with my current MP in front of a tuner
2. wrote down what notes were out of tune and how much
3. started with a 4 sleeve and went up first
4. My theory was if it got worse tuning wise I would reverse or go to the next sleeve
The results astounded me!
1. On my Bach, the uncut mouthpiece was badly out of tune. It got worse the higher number of sleeve I put on it. As I went lower in sleeve number, it got better. I ended up on a 2.5 and nearly all notes were close in tune. A drastic difference. I have ordered a #2 sleeve because I didn't have anything smaller than a 2.5. Once I receive it I will update my findings.
2. On my Yamaha the uncut mouthpiece was very close in tune on all notes. As I put on higher sleeves it got worse, also as I put on lower sleeves it got worse. I am at the conclusion that the uncut MP is gapped perfectly on the Yamaha.
I have redone these test multiple times and come to the same conclusions. What this tells me is that the receivers are completely different from manufacturer to manufacturer. I believe the gap absolutely makes a difference in how a horn plays. I am just a student and am no authority on the Trumpet, so please correct me if I am on the wrong track, it certainly wouldn't be the first time. It amazes me how such a minor tweak can have such an impact on tuning and sound. Neat stuff! _________________ Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1720 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Your description of the process is exactly correct - well done for doing it so methodically and painstakingly, as you can see from your results, this is something thats well worth taking the time to work through and get right...
Can I ask/speculate something?
Was the Yamaha the clear favourite horn to use before you got the sleeved mouthpiece? (I'm expecting it was)
If so, was this as a result of the better intonation with the uncut mouthpiece making it more enjoyable to play (and/or giving you more consistent tone, better endurance, etc)? |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:56 am Post subject: |
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Is that all it affected - intonation? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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lexluther Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2015 Posts: 108 Location: Northwest, Indiana
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: |
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TKSop wrote: | Your description of the process is exactly correct - well done for doing it so methodically and painstakingly, as you can see from your results, this is something thats well worth taking the time to work through and get right...
Can I ask/speculate something?
Was the Yamaha the clear favourite horn to use before you got the sleeved mouthpiece? (I'm expecting it was)
If so, was this as a result of the better intonation with the uncut mouthpiece making it more enjoyable to play (and/or giving you more consistent tone, better endurance, etc)? |
Both horns are outstanding. The Yamaha is new to me and I describe it as the nicest playing horn ever to touch my lips. Before I did this with the gap, there was no comparison between the two. Yamaha all the way. I still prefer the Yamaha, but the Bach is also a great horn and now plays just as good. I play them both every day. _________________ Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML |
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lexluther Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2015 Posts: 108 Location: Northwest, Indiana
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:24 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Is that all it affected - intonation? |
I can't be sure, but it seems to me like the upper register is a little easier and more in tune. _________________ Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1720 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:39 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Is that all it affected - intonation? |
It could be read as if that's not the biggest deal in the world (I'm sure it wasn't your intention to portray that meaning!).... I'm not sure there's any more important element in terms of knock-on effects.
Poor intonation effects almost everything.
Better evenness of scale leads to better predictability and security, and hence to confidence and consistency; having to lip notes into tune effects timbre (lipped notes lose resonance), effects low-volume response (notes are hardest to lip at low volume), makes flexibilities more difficult and damages endurance. |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5675 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:43 am Post subject: |
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I'm surprised you didn't experience an immediate shift in focus and balance/resistance, particularly with the Bach. In my experience with it, not every horn is as sensitive to gap adjustments, but that Bachs were pretty sensitive to it.
I've told my story here several times about how I became a believe in gap adjustments to dial in a horn/mouthpiece combination, but the bottom line is that the change was significant, and it was immediately noticeable. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:48 am Post subject: |
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lexluther wrote: | kehaulani wrote: | Is that all it affected - intonation? |
I can't be sure, but it seems to me like the upper register is a little easier and more in tune. |
Thanks. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:08 am Post subject: |
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Well, another question.
At 23.00 bucks an item, sample sleeves could quickly add up. Is there an inexpensive way to do this? Maybe, like four sleeves (and which ones?). What would one suggest? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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lexluther Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2015 Posts: 108 Location: Northwest, Indiana
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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trickg wrote: | I'm surprised you didn't experience an immediate shift in focus and balance/resistance, particularly with the Bach. In my experience with it, not every horn is as sensitive to gap adjustments, but that Bachs were pretty sensitive to it.
I've told my story here several times about how I became a believe in gap adjustments to dial in a horn/mouthpiece combination, but the bottom line is that the change was significant, and it was immediately noticeable. |
I'm probably just not quite experienced enough to make the connection with focus and resistance, but what you say about being a significant change I totally agree with. The Bach plays much smoother, sounds better, and all around plays easier after the sleeve. Is that what you mean about focus and resistance? _________________ Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML |
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lexluther Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2015 Posts: 108 Location: Northwest, Indiana
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Well, another question.
At 23.00 bucks an item, sample sleeves could quickly add up. Is there an inexpensive way to do this? Maybe, like four sleeves (and which ones?). What would one suggest? |
I was lucky and found them used. the nine I have 2, 2.5, 3 ,3.5 ,4, 4.5, 5, 5.5 and 6 would run $180.00 from Reeves (3 for $60.00). The plus side I guess is that once you have a set you can check any new horns you buy! _________________ Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8910 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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I never checked the intonation aspect of sleeves. What I did notice was a big change in response. When the gap is dialed in the horn rings with much less effort. Stepping away from the optimum gaps feels like adding consequentially more work.
I too scored a big set of sleeves from someone for relatively little $.
My impressions are based on a Bach 43/43 with a Schilke Symphony M3. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Here is what one of the greatest mouthpiece manufacturers on the planet has to say about gap and sleeves.
http://www.grmouthpieces.com/gap.html
I haven't seen any Chicago area trumpet player use sleeves.
R. Tomasek |
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lexluther Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2015 Posts: 108 Location: Northwest, Indiana
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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Vin DiBona wrote: | Here is what one of the greatest mouthpiece manufacturers on the planet has to say about gap and sleeves.
http://www.grmouthpieces.com/gap.html
I haven't seen any Chicago area trumpet player use sleeves.
R. Tomasek |
Thanks Vin for the link. As you well know, I have tried GR Mouthpieces. While I think they are a great company, it just didn’t work out for me. I am thankful that we Trumpet players have the choice of help from the likes of Bob Reeves and GR too! I believe there is no absolute answer for the aspiring musician. Choice is a good thing! These MP makers all know thier stuff! I know one thing though, there is at least one Trumpet player using sleeves in Chicagoland. _________________ Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not really familiar with what is a normal gap. If I was to buy four sleeves to check out the gap like done above, what sizes would be reasonable? Thanks. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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kevin_soda Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2015 Posts: 558 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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I really enjoy my Monette pieces so I was skeptical about gap adjustments. Like GR, you'd probably never see one modified. But I have an old Maggio piece that needed some work and I decided to have it cut for sleeves. It's a shallow piece but I always played flat and stuffy in the upper register. I took it to Matt Frost and he did an excellent job. Since it's rare to need additional gap, I bought his #3 (no change) and his #1 (minimal gap). Again, I was skeptical but now I only use the #1 for the same reasons you mentioned. The difference is undeniable. _________________ Kevin |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Vin DiBona wrote: | Here is what one of the greatest mouthpiece manufacturers on the planet has to say about gap and sleeves.
http://www.grmouthpieces.com/gap.html
I haven't seen any Chicago area trumpet player use sleeves.
R. Tomasek |
One of my mouthpieces is a GR I bought from a friend. I didn't care for it much when I first tried it. It played like the gap was too wide, though it was gapped like a Bach mpc. He sent it to be cut for sleeves and the dramatic improvement prompted me to buy it from him and it is now one of my primary pieces.
kehaulani wrote: | I'm not really familiar with what is a normal gap. If I was to buy four sleeves to check out the gap like done above, what sizes would be reasonable? Thanks. |
Check out http://www.bobreeves.com/products/gap.htm
I recommend trying his paper trick to see if it makes any worthwhile changes. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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trumpet.trader Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Jul 2017 Posts: 200
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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I thought for years that mp gap was just mystique and a waste of time and money. It's the player not the equipment.
Then I ended up with a backbore I liked at was cut for sleeves and did some experimenting out of curiosity and I was astonished by the results. I never gained any range but found that articulations became more clean, evenness and intonation and overall sound color were all improved as I dialed in the right gap for me.
Now every mouthpiece I have is cut for sleeves and depending on which horn I play the sleeve I use can be dramatically different. So having a full set of sleeves I thought was expensive when I first bought them, but in the long run a great investment. |
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lexluther Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2015 Posts: 108 Location: Northwest, Indiana
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Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:21 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | I'm not really familiar with what is a normal gap. If I was to buy four sleeves to check out the gap like done above, what sizes would be reasonable? Thanks. |
I believe it will be completely different on every Trumpet. If you were to buy a 3,4,5,and six I think you could at least determine what direction you need to go. Also I believe Bob Reeves includes one sleeve with the cut. I could be wrong on that one though. _________________ Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5675 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:55 am Post subject: |
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lexluther wrote: | trickg wrote: | I'm surprised you didn't experience an immediate shift in focus and balance/resistance, particularly with the Bach. In my experience with it, not every horn is as sensitive to gap adjustments, but that Bachs were pretty sensitive to it.
I've told my story here several times about how I became a believe in gap adjustments to dial in a horn/mouthpiece combination, but the bottom line is that the change was significant, and it was immediately noticeable. |
I'm probably just not quite experienced enough to make the connection with focus and resistance, but what you say about being a significant change I totally agree with. The Bach plays much smoother, sounds better, and all around plays easier after the sleeve. Is that what you mean about focus and resistance? |
That's pretty much what I mean. When the gap is dialed in, everything just pops - the horn responds quickly and everything feels very centered and balanced. Because it's dialed in, playing becomes much more efficient and effortless on the part of the player. Response and blow feel right, intonation is improved and the horn slots well.
When the gap isn't dialed in, it might feel open enough down low, but get increasingly stuffy up top, or worse (IMO) it feels like the horn is too open, and you can't get anything to push back against up top. It's like you have to force the horn to focus and the slots never quite seem to be where you think they should be, so you won't play as accurately, and it will have a negative effect on your endurance. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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