P.S. The two [sic] placements in what I quoted is because I corrected the units. The study mistakenly wrote Pa (Pascals) in that paragraph where they meant kPa (kilopascals).
Then you used " [sic] " backwards. It means that you did NOT edit. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
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It's also worth a mention that not all trumpet playing requires such incredible air power. Jim Pandolfi did a Monster Oil Brasschats video in which he said, "If you blow, you suck!" a catchy tip to remind his students that applying too much air power can cause them to miss the sweet spot of resonance in their sound.[/quote]
And the question remains - velocity or pressure. Pressure is confined velcity in this sense or am I missing something? I'm not being argumentative. Just trying to understand how:
Hand pressure
Appeture and tongue
Wind
And tongue work together as some form of each is required. If you agree in principle with that in some proportion a+b+c+ d = desired result then each can theoretically be more or less than 25%. No one wants to use hand pressure equally as it hurts endurance. Wind in some instances is limited. You see where I'm going! I would like input from those who use appeture and tongue in greater proportion. I'm really glad some can get the right balance proportionally but I see looking to better appeture and tongue to be my biggest percentage. Would love to hear from those who have similar wishes or tips
Rod
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Compression??
rothman wrote:
The view on abdominal supported air pressure and p.s.i. is interesting, but few mention that the idea of overblowing from a breathing apparatus is considered counterproductive and avoided by some.
I think "abdominal assisted" would be a better term if such a term is necessary at all. The main muscles of forced expiration are the internal intercostal (rib) muscles, particularly the ones in the back area of the ribs (in the area beneath the shoulder blades and on each side of the spine). The abdominal, internal obliques, and several other muscle groups assist the internal intercostal muscles when blowing hard.
Here's some videos I had access to when taking Anatomy & Physiology that I combined into one 2 minute long video that details the muscles of forced expiration:
Overblowing is never good - I think (hope) we all know that. Besides creating a harsh, unpleasant tone, overblowing causes too much aperture spread, swelling of the lips and also causes the tongue to flatten down, loosing the efficiency created by proper up and forward tongue arch.
rothman wrote:
Well known today is a school of thought that promotes notion of compressing air in the mouth. Having the tongue thrust across the teeth, the air is having to work it's way > up and over, supercharged into the cup.. Conversely, C.G's arching of the tongue further back in the mouth is somewhat related to this.
This going to be in bold because it drives me crazy when people spread incorrect info about Claude Gordon and what he taught (I assume you are referring to him when you write "C.G"). Claude would be spinning in his grave if he could read what you wrote!
Claude Gordon taught that the tongue should be arched up and forward in the mouth - NEVER in the back of the mouth. He even had anatomically correct drawings (created by an anatomical artist) in his studio showing correct (up and forward) and incorrect (up and rearward) tongue arch. These illustrations also appear on page 25 of his book Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing published by Carl Fischer Music Corp.
There. I feel better now.
By teaching his students the method of tonguing taught to him by Herbert L. Clarke (Dorsal Tonguing) where the tip of the tongue is kept behind the bottom teeth and notes are articulated with the middle-front portion of the tongue striking the area of the backs of the top teeth (or the gum-line there), the tongue is kept in a more forward position in the mouth then when tonguing the typical (but wrong) way with the tip striking behind the top teeth, and when arching for the most extreme high notes the position reached is the same as when pronouncing the ssss sound (or saying the word "sea"). Up and forward. Or "to and fro" as the great cornet soloist Liberati wrote in his method book.
rothman wrote:
In other words, a question remains whether air in the mouth 'compresses' to some important amount or barely measurable, when a venturi effect takes shape.
Arching the tongue up and forward does not create air pressure. All the air pressure is created by the blowing muscles. Arching the tongue does narrow the passage way, causing the airstream to be thinner and act upon a smaller area of the lips much as a nozzle acts on a garden hose's water stream causing it to be able to send stones flying off a driveway that wouldn't budge if just hit by the slow, wide stream of water coming out the end of a hose with no nozzle.
There is one situation where the tongue can act to increase (or rather maintain) air pressure. That situation is when circular breathing. When a player who can do this does this, to maintain the tone when he stops blowing and inspires air in through his nose, he momentarily arches his tongue up and forward (while closing off the glottis) to maintain the airstream going through the lips. Some will also allow their cheeks to bulge with air moments before breathing in, in order to use the muscles of the cheeks as little bellows to continue blowing air through the lips while breathing in through the nose. But this use of the tongue to create (or maintain) air pressure is a fairly rare phenomena.
Best wishes,
John Mohan _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:46 am Post subject:
mm55 wrote:
Quote:
P.S. The two [sic] placements in what I quoted is because I corrected the units. The study mistakenly wrote Pa (Pascals) in that paragraph where they meant kPa (kilopascals).
Then you used " [sic] " backwards. It means that you did NOT edit.
Oh crap, you're right. What convention is used to show that a quote was edited?
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:56 am Post subject:
trumpet56 wrote:
It's also worth a mention that not all trumpet playing requires such incredible air power. Jim Pandolfi did a Monster Oil Brasschats video in which he said, "If you blow, you suck!" a catchy tip to remind his students that applying too much air power can cause them to miss the sweet spot of resonance in their sound.
+1 Jim is absolutley correct.
The objective data provided by every formal study of the subject has confirmed that each octave climb on a brass instrument (whether it's a Tuba or a Trumpet, or anything in between) requires approximately a doubling of the supplied air pressure if the volume of sound is to be maintained.
That said, I think it's pretty obvious that more efficient players who have the coordination aspect of it down better can create louder and/or higher notes with less supplied air pressure than less coordinated players.
Other parts of the study I quoted from earlier confirmed the above - the more accomplished players produced more sound with less effort. The study also contained data that showed that once a certain sound pressure level was reached by a player on a particular note, blowing a whole lot harder didn't add much if any volume, but did add distortion to the tone (confirming what Jim Pandolfi was saying).
It's also worth a mention that not all trumpet playing requires such incredible air power. Jim Pandolfi did a ...
That said, I think it's pretty obvious that more efficient players who have the coordination aspect of it down better can create louder and/or higher notes with less supplied air pressure than less coordinated players.
YES this is what I wish to learn and know more about yet few have spoken to this efficiency and coordination you mention, and I agree with every word you mentioned throughout the post.
Since what I want has finally been clearly stated can someone please point me to more information and methods for achieving efficiency and coordination required to do it with h less air. I have found Knevitt/Chimera but it is rather brief. It remediates or overly (adequately?) strengthens the appeture to reduce dependence on pure power by teaching you to vibrate a smaller surface to proper cycles. What else have you successful efficient dbl players found. Please share anything. I have a long way to go and a short time to get there and you would be a hero. Ive seen you guys I know you are out there!
I know I is hard work but I don't mind, I just want direction toward this way of playing.
Rod
We just need to make the vibrations cycle faster and only the lips need air and not the horn (see mp videos that show tone created with no air).
To play the instrument does require air flow. (Be careful not to draw a false conclusion from such videos.)
And the higher pitches are due to the aperture posture. That is; smaller/firmer. Air velocity does not determine pitch. Nor does it increase "compression"
Air pressure AND air flow is required to play.
To reduce the air pressure requirement to play you must improve the efficiency at the embouchure. But even then, there is a minimum air pressure (and air flow) required which increases with the loudness of tone.
Also, atmospheric pressure can be considered as zero (psig or any other units). For these discussions.
Claude Gordon taught that the tongue should be arched up and forward in the mouth - NEVER in the back of the mouth. He even had anatomically correct drawings (created by an anatomical artist) in his studio showing correct (up and forward) and incorrect (up and rearward) tongue arch..
By teaching his students the method of tonguing taught to him by Herbert L. Clarke (Dorsal Tonguing) where the tip of the tongue is kept behind the bottom teeth and notes are articulated with the middle-front portion of the tongue striking the area of the backs of the top teeth (or the gum-line there), the tongue is kept in a more forward position in the mouth then when tonguing the typical (but wrong) way with the tip striking behind the top teeth, and when arching for the most extreme high notes the position reached is the same as when pronouncing the ssss sound (or saying the word "sea"). Up and forward. Or "to and fro" as the great cornet soloist Liberati wrote in his method book.
If you could include a bit on his suggestion of forming 'vowels' along with the description...since he was well known for this. It's there in his manuals. "Ahh---Eeeee" while ascending, verses "eee---ahh" for descending. In the above explanation, vowels are not referenced.
As soon as vowels are formed in any such manner, the tongue is most likely arching rearward to some degree. Not to say it's a bad thing, but it seems to be where Claude and TCE differ...contrasted at least, by that characteristic.
John Mohan wrote:
Overblowing is never good - I think (hope) we all know that. Besides creating a harsh, unpleasant tone, overblowing causes too much aperture spread, swelling of the lips and also causes the tongue to flatten down, loosing the efficiency created by proper up and forward tongue arch.
Well...the thread by itself indicates the frequency of believing that, 'range will expand after blowing harder and faster air'. Begs the question of where it can lead..
"Most professionals today are overblowing" -- J. Callet
We just need to make the vibrations cycle faster and only the lips need air and not the horn (see mp videos that show tone created with no air).
Kalijah
I was speaking to air velocity. Yes the tone with no air is more than thin, but it is the transfer of vibration into the body of the horn the out into the air again that amazes me about the video. I'm obviously not knowledgeable about a lot of things trumpet but that was a shocker and started me down a path.
Rod
To play the instrument does require air flow. (Be careful not to draw a false conclusion from such videos.)
And the higher pitches are due to the aperture posture. That is; smaller/firmer. Air velocity does not determine pitch. Nor does it increase "compression"
Air pressure AND air flow is required to play.
To reduce the air pressure requirement to play you must improve the efficiency at the embouchure. But even then, there is a minimum air pressure (and air flow) required which increases with the loudness of tone.
Kalijah
THis is what I want to hear more about, how to take the embouchere to this fine line. Develop it and tongue to a fine level to maximize what breath I have.
If you can give me the benefit of your knowledge I would be most greatful. I prefer to use the material as I choose and many of the people I have had lessons did not emphasize this. I do have a strong very natural embouchere but I have never done a thing to make it stronger other than play. I am looking for direction. Could you or other like minded people please provide it?
Thanks,
Rod
Also, atmospheric pressure can be considered as zero (psig or any other units). For these discussions.
Yeah but the Germans I worked with on engines with always used absolute pressure. Don't know if you have driven a modern car with a boost gauge but most show the absolute pressure 25lbs on a gauge is much more impressive than the 10.3 it actually is.
And if you could hook up a dbl. c blowing trumpet player to a short enough path on a good engine, the 4 lbs pressure would make the car run better -for about .1 seconds if that. Not enough volume to fill the tubes and establish pressure or even begin flow. Seems to me the only thing we 'fill' is the mp and maybe part of the body, but never the bell. So isn't the area we need fill to establish pressure the mp and leadpipe??
Your comments are helpful and at least show me someone else believes in the path. Send me some reading or the name of a teacher who specializes in tongue and appeture please
Rod
We just need to make the vibrations cycle faster and only the lips need air and not the horn (see mp videos that show tone created with no air).
Kalijah
I was speaking to air velocity. Yes the tone with no air is more than thin, but it is the transfer of vibration into the body of the horn the out into the air again that amazes me about the video. I'm obviously not knowledgeable about a lot of things trumpet but that was a shocker and started me down a path.
Rod
To play the instrument does require air flow. (Be careful not to draw a false conclusion from such videos.)
And the higher pitches are due to the aperture posture. That is; smaller/firmer. Air velocity does not determine pitch. Nor does it increase "compression"
Air pressure AND air flow is required to play.
To reduce the air pressure requirement to play you must improve the efficiency at the embouchure. But even then, there is a minimum air pressure (and air flow) required which increases with the loudness of tone.
Kalijah
THis is what I want to hear more about, how to take the embouchere to this fine line. Develop it and tongue to a fine level to maximize what breath I have.
If you can give me the benefit of your knowledge I would be most greatful. I prefer to use the material as I choose and many of the people I have had lessons did not emphasize this. I do have a strong very natural embouchere but I have never done a thing to make it stronger other than play. I am looking for direction. Could you or other like minded people please provide it?
Thanks,
Rod
Also, atmospheric pressure can be considered as zero (psig or any other units). For these discussions.
Yeah but the Germans I worked with on engines with always used absolute pressure. Don't know if you have driven a modern car with a boost gauge but most show the absolute pressure 25lbs on a gauge is much more impressive than the 10.3 it actually is.
And if you could hook up a dbl. c blowing trumpet player to a short enough path on a good engine, the 4 lbs pressure would make the car run better -for about .1 seconds if that. Not enough volume to fill the tubes and establish pressure or even begin flow. Seems to me the only thing we 'fill' is the mp and maybe part of the body, but never the bell. So isn't the area we need fill to establish pressure the mp and leadpipe??
Your comments are helpful and at least show me someone else believes in the path. Send me some reading or the name of a teacher who specializes in tongue and appeture please
Rod
Please all take the time to read this thoroughly; originally posted by tommy.t Nov 15 2012: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/documents/Benade-Trumpet-1973.pdf.
Not that easy to read but, in my view, shedding light on the present topic
(and many discussions on the matter).
I found it highly interesting although I wouldnīt pretend I understood it fully. I may even have misinterpreted it. _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
which worked just a minute ago. Good luck but prepare for heavy reading!
Beats me why the first one didnīt work _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:41 am Post subject:
Seymor B Fudd wrote:
Beats me why the first one didnīt work
The first link contains a hyperlink that ends with an erroneous period. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
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Well known today is a school of thought that promotes notion of compressing air in the mouth. Having the tongue thrust across the teeth, the air is having to work it's way > up and over, supercharged into the cup..
This is an example of the junk science that mm55 was referring to.
Since you (Rod) decided to meander into opinion on Miles; I think what made Miles a fantastic player was his disregard for convention. Here you search for convention, Miles could care less about convention. You judge his playing based on conventional criteria this has nothing to do with how Miles sounded like Miles. He expressed a certain kind of angst or pain when he played. This was his voice and he used every crevice available to him. You do not create the moments like he did by worrying about or spending hours practicing your attack and sound. Pure expression and in the moment creativity poured out with total disregard for, if it will be clean or not. This speaks to the human experience. In the heat of an argument do we speak with complete control of our enunciation, our word choice or vocal control? When we are so upset we can barely speak through our tears are we concerned with any of this? No we are consumed by emotion and the result is honesty wrapped in human frailty. Miles reached into the soul through vulnerability not control. If he concerned himself with total command of his approach all would be lost and brilliance would be reduced to calculated ideas governed by perceived capability limitations. His mastery was that of complete expression and it is impossible to duplicate. This is true artistry.
I have seen what your going through many times form young to old. The same questions asked and answered time and again. Honestly the seeker usually does not have their eyes open. It is also difficult to weed through the vast and at times contradictory information they receive.
When folks ask these how to questions on a social media page it is like going into grand central station and asking where is the best pizza in town. You will get too many answers and some will be contradictory. This approach does not in most cases work well. To experience the sights, smells and sounds of New York it would be best to have a guide.
Like visiting New York, when learning to get better on the trumpet it is wise to have a guide. This approach usually is the fastest way to gain ground. If you are with a teacher that does not connect with what you need move on. I like in person one on one live can touch them lessons. I learn the most as a student and a teacher.
Having a discussion with the teacher before you start is key. You want them to know what your goals and expectations are. Then listen to what they have to say about how they will help you grow. This conversation should aid you in deciding if they are the right match for you.
Here is as promised a video on Velocity studies and how they might help unlock the upper register.
All of my videos are meant to provoke thought, If you think they suck I was successful.
We have 2 things that work here inside the body. Of course the lips on the outside.
When we cough , we create the most air pressure that we can.
Many high note players, use a form of this as air compression.
Relax the stomach muscles and below the navel pull in and up hard and fast.
The farther in that you move this area of the torso then the more the air is compressed.
Pulling in slightly displaces the internal organs which can't go lower because of the pelvic bones and other things.
So they push up and push against the diaphragm. That in turn pushes against the bottom of the lungs. Do it slowly and you just get the same note but louder.
DO it fast like clapping your hands and you jump up to higher notes.
Practice this on the second page of intervals in Arban usually on page 126 and you can get some good control of it.
The tongue as in anchor tonguing also creates a funnel and focuses the airstrean down from the entire width of our mouth (like non arch players) to about 1/8 of an inch width in the extreme upper register.
Since it has already been shown in science experiments at the University of BC that cutting the width of the airstream in half raises the pitch an octave.... well you see how this might be why so many pros keep telling people to learn how to anchor tongue. _________________ Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons:www.BbTrumpet.com
To the OP...
I hope you won't be offended, but I think your
time would be much better spent PRACTICING, rather than worrying
about all the theories of Psychology and Physiology behind trumpet playing.
The Arban, Schlossberg, and Clarke books contain all the answers to your
questions. In my opinion, if you can play up to a high E 3 Ledger lines above
the treble clef, then your problem is not the compression of the air,
but more one of lip compression as it relates to the embouchure.
I don't know what kind of setup you use, but in my case to get a
good clear usable high G, I have to get that lower lip up
and in the mouthpiece, more than just for ...a high D.
I have found that dedicated practice in the Schlossberg book
is very good for achieving this goal.
As far as compression of the air goes, Bobby Shew talks
about using what he calls a "wedge breath".
Which means using the intercostal muscles to
kind of grip the air and force it out with more velocity.
It's really not all that complicated, but it can be kind of TRICKY
getting the correct feel of the combination of embouchure
and breathing in order to have a good solid High register.
No matter what setup you are using, the way to get there is through
Intelligent and consistent practice... Not over-thinking.
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:02 pm Post subject:
I dunno about all this pressure stuff. I know in College, playing lead on top of 4 other very strong trumpet players you all recognize, Bobby Burns's DHC was so loud that David Baker had to ask Bobby to play softer. Bobby was already playing as soft as he could, and certainly did not seem engaged in any strenuous activity.
I think something else besides just more air pressure can be involved?
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