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lexluther Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2015 Posts: 108 Location: Northwest, Indiana
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Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:50 am Post subject: |
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trickg wrote: | lexluther wrote: | trickg wrote: | I'm surprised you didn't experience an immediate shift in focus and balance/resistance, particularly with the Bach. In my experience with it, not every horn is as sensitive to gap adjustments, but that Bachs were pretty sensitive to it.
I've told my story here several times about how I became a believe in gap adjustments to dial in a horn/mouthpiece combination, but the bottom line is that the change was significant, and it was immediately noticeable. |
I'm probably just not quite experienced enough to make the connection with focus and resistance, but what you say about being a significant change I totally agree with. The Bach plays much smoother, sounds better, and all around plays easier after the sleeve. Is that what you mean about focus and resistance? |
That's pretty much what I mean. When the gap is dialed in, everything just pops - the horn responds quickly and everything feels very centered and balanced. Because it's dialed in, playing becomes much more efficient and effortless on the part of the player. Response and blow feel right, intonation is improved and the horn slots well.
When the gap isn't dialed in, it might feel open enough down low, but get increasingly stuffy up top, or worse (IMO) it feels like the horn is too open, and you can't get anything to push back against up top. It's like you have to force the horn to focus and the slots never quite seem to be where you think they should be, so you won't play as accurately, and it will have a negative effect on your endurance. |
Nice description, Thank You! _________________ Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Tpt_Guy wrote: |
kehaulani wrote: | I'm not really familiar with what is a normal gap. If I was to buy four sleeves to check out the gap like done above, what sizes would be reasonable? Thanks. |
Check out http://www.bobreeves.com/products/gap.htm I recommend trying his paper trick to see if it makes any worthwhile changes. |
Thanks, Tom. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1720 Location: UK
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Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:27 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Tpt_Guy wrote: |
kehaulani wrote: | I'm not really familiar with what is a normal gap. If I was to buy four sleeves to check out the gap like done above, what sizes would be reasonable? Thanks. |
Check out http://www.bobreeves.com/products/gap.htm I recommend trying his paper trick to see if it makes any worthwhile changes. |
Thanks, Tom. |
Worth remembering that it's not just positive change you're looking for - not finding an improvement doesn't mean your current setup is perfect, it means more gap isn't what you're after (it's not testing less gap). |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:54 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Well, another question.
At 23.00 bucks an item, sample sleeves could quickly add up. Is there an inexpensive way to do this? Maybe, like four sleeves (and which ones?). What would one suggest? |
Teflon tape maybe? The kind plumbers apply to threaded pipes. You'll need to adjust from time to time as it wears out but at least you'll have an idea if you can improve your intonation. Before shelling out big bucks. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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trumpet.trader Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Jul 2017 Posts: 200
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Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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There's no easy way to find out which gaps works best with out trying them.
Tape "works" but when we're talking about such small, minute differences; tape isn't very accurate.
Every time I switch horns or mouthpieces I use different sleeves that I've dialed in, so it's good to have all the other sleeves available.
Buying a complete set of sleeves is a one time investment and money well spent |
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rufflicks Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 Posts: 641 Location: Mesa AZ
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Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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Don’t be a Gap Denier… Some folks already have equipment that is optimal and will not gain from having the mouthpiece altered to accept a gap adjustable system. They would only discover that it has an affect. Others will have a pronounced experience that offers improved playability. There are some that will not have a profound experience. Optimal gap is discovered and chances are it will be different from horn to horn, mouthpiece to mouthpiece and player to player. Like trumpet trader I have all my trumpet mouthpieces set up for a gap adjustable system. I know for a fact there are players that have received benefits from having their GR, Monette, and virtually every brand of trumpet mouthpiece altered to accept a gap adjustable system. Don’t be a Gap Denier.
Best, Jon _________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips
Remember this is supposed to be fun. |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:17 am Post subject: |
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rufflicks wrote: | Don’t be a Gap Denier… Some folks already have equipment that is optimal and will not gain from having the mouthpiece altered to accept a gap adjustable system. They would only discover that it has an affect. Others will have a pronounced experience that offers improved playability. There are some that will not have a profound experience. Optimal gap is discovered and chances are it will be different from horn to horn, mouthpiece to mouthpiece and player to player. Like trumpet trader I have all my trumpet mouthpieces set up for a gap adjustable system. I know for a fact there are players that have received benefits from having their GR, Monette, and virtually every brand of trumpet mouthpiece altered to accept a gap adjustable system. Don’t be a Gap Denier.
Best, Jon |
Jon, perhaps you can help here as you're affiliated with a company that manufactures and sells a gap adjustment system. There are some in this thread that, like me, are planning on trying out sleeves. What counts as a reasonably complete sleeve collection? Say, if I were to purchase 6 sleeves, which are the most common? It's tough to understand where an initial investment should be for something like this.
Thanks,
Brian _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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iiipopes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 Posts: 545
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:59 am Post subject: |
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The backbore also affects the gap and intonation. I played a Yammy Shew Jazz, which is essentially a 3C with a tight backbore, and I needed the piece of masking tape around the shank to get the gap wide enough to not cause intonation issues, including 3rd space C and surrounding notes going sharp.
My old mid-'70's 3C with the standard #10 backbore went flat in the upper register on the horn I now have.
My custom 3C/#76 backbore is very, very close in tune, so that I don't have to worry about anything except kicking slides on the usual suspects. Just for grins, trying the tape, it got worse in both intonation and response, all the way around.
My outdoor mouthpiece, a Kelly Shew, needed a millimeter shaved off the shank to get it to not go sharp in the mid register.
So don't discount the backbore and throat when focusing on balancing the mouthpiece to the horn, including the gap.
So many variables, so little time.... _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
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rufflicks Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 Posts: 641 Location: Mesa AZ
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Turkle,
I would suggest 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5, 5, 5.5 This is center of the range and should get you a very good indication where you belong. If you find things get better as you head in a particular direction and end up on a 3 or 5.5 you can always as they say in “This is Spinal Tap” go one more.
There are those that will say you need to get the 1/4 sizes. This is getting rather deep into the weeds and might be something to experiment with once you dial yourself in with half sizes.
Best, Jon _________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips
Remember this is supposed to be fun. |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:29 am Post subject: |
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rufflicks wrote: | Turkle,
I would suggest 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5, 5, 5.5 This is center of the range and should get you a very good indication where you belong. If you find things get better as you head in a particular direction and end up on a 3 or 5.5 you can always as they say in “This is Spinal Tap” go one more.
There are those that will say you need to get the 1/4 sizes. This is getting rather deep into the weeds and might be something to experiment with once you dial yourself in with half sizes.
Best, Jon |
Thanks, Jon. Cheers _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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trumpet.trader Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Jul 2017 Posts: 200
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:36 am Post subject: |
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rufflicks wrote: |
There are those that will say you need to get the 1/4 sizes. This is getting rather deep into the weeds and might be something to experiment with once you dial yourself in with half sizes.
Best, Jon |
There are 1/4 sizes now? I wish I didn't know this information. |
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lexluther Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2015 Posts: 108 Location: Northwest, Indiana
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Good luck with the sleeves everyone _________________ Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML |
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Locutus2k Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 635 Location: Rome, Italy
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Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:32 am Post subject: |
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trickg wrote: | lexluther wrote: | trickg wrote: | I'm surprised you didn't experience an immediate shift in focus and balance/resistance, particularly with the Bach. In my experience with it, not every horn is as sensitive to gap adjustments, but that Bachs were pretty sensitive to it.
I've told my story here several times about how I became a believe in gap adjustments to dial in a horn/mouthpiece combination, but the bottom line is that the change was significant, and it was immediately noticeable. |
I'm probably just not quite experienced enough to make the connection with focus and resistance, but what you say about being a significant change I totally agree with. The Bach plays much smoother, sounds better, and all around plays easier after the sleeve. Is that what you mean about focus and resistance? |
That's pretty much what I mean. When the gap is dialed in, everything just pops - the horn responds quickly and everything feels very centered and balanced. Because it's dialed in, playing becomes much more efficient and effortless on the part of the player. Response and blow feel right, intonation is improved and the horn slots well.
When the gap isn't dialed in, it might feel open enough down low, but get increasingly stuffy up top, or worse (IMO) it feels like the horn is too open, and you can't get anything to push back against up top. It's like you have to force the horn to focus and the slots never quite seem to be where you think they should be, so you won't play as accurately, and it will have a negative effect on your endurance. |
EXACTLY! To me, more than intonation, gap changes affects playability and resistance. Intonation, of course, will change because of the changed resistance (and the change is dramatic, believe me).
I personally likes small or medium/small gap on all trumpets i've tried and didn't use anything below 5.5. On my main trumpet Lawler TL5 i use a #7 sleeve, with a "standard" gapped mouthpiece (about #5) the horn is stuffy (and is a LB horn) with a #7 sleeves has the biggest sound you can imagine.
The "funny" thing is that thanks to sleeves i've been able to play some high-compression shallow lead mouthpieces i've never been able to play. Just dial the right gap for these "difficult" pieces and they will make your lips vibrate freely while before the the gap treatment they were closing down on you. _________________ ------------------------
Edwards X-13
Lawler TL5 Balanced 30th Anniversary (#2 of 5)
Lawler TL5 L bore
Bach NY Special edition 2008
Flugel Van Laar Oiram Ack
Mark Curry mouthpieces
------------------------ |
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rufflicks Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 Posts: 641 Location: Mesa AZ
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Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:34 am Post subject: |
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Trumpet Trader,
Yes Bob offers 1/4 sizes. If you want to know if it is the size you need. Find the 2 best, lets say for example the 3.5 and 4 are both good for you. Take the 3.5 (more gap than the 4) and put it in the receiver with a little greater force than usual. You just created a 1/4 size. Play and see if this a noticeable difference. You could buy one too but this will be a way to determine if it is even worth it.
Best, Jon _________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips
Remember this is supposed to be fun. |
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