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Callet lesson: jaw position



 
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elgin
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Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 111
Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:35 am    Post subject: Callet lesson: jaw position Reply with quote

I had a lesson with Jerry last Thursday. All the stories I've heard about Jerry and Yumiko being kind and hospitable are absolutely true. My wife, Carol, had a wonderful time visiting with Yumiko while I had a very productive lesson. 

Jerry spent most of the time talking about jaw position. Having studied with Stevens and Reinhardt, I've been playing with a forward jaw position for decades. Personally, the high horn angle is an attempt to keep the mp from slipping down on my upper lip, but as Jerry explained Thur, it causes a problem for MSC. Jerry actually told me in a phone lesson (having never seen me play) to pull my jaw back to ascend, but I couldn't make the connection

Here's the problem with the too-forward jaw with MSC. In MSC, ascending is accomplished by pressing the tip of the curled tongue against the bottom tip, which causes the top of the tongue to compress against the top lip and teeth. However, if the jaw is too far forward, it causes two problems.  

First problem: Since the tongue is connected to be jaw, pushing the jaw forward can push the tongue too far forward. The angles are wrong (my words) to properly press down on the lower lip, which is supposed to force the top of the tongue against the top lip and teeth. MSC breaks down. 

Second problem: Even if you can manage to press the tip of the tongue against the lower lip while the jaw is thrust forward, the tongue tip would have to reach forward of the protruding teeth, and at that angle, the tongue may be pressing more forward than down. The effect would be one of pushing the lower lip forward; away from the top lip. The harder you press, the further out of position the lower lip would be. And, even if the lower lip could resist it, the angles would still not efficiently assist the top of the tongue in pressing up against the top lip and teeth. MSC breaks down. 

Additional Benefit: The opening between the teeth is effectively larger when the jaw is receded. (think 3-dimensionally)  So, a forward jaw would have a smaller effective teeth opening. In other words, even if you inadvertently closed the teeth too much, the slightly receded jaw would minimize the effects of this error. 

The last thing Jerry talked about was my tendency to squeeze my lips together. For me, I believe this was an unconscious attempt to compensate for the forward and closed jaw. Lip-to-lip compression is not MSC.  When I was able to keep my jaw in its natural slightly receded position and didn't squeeze my lips together, my sound really opened up!

Now, to make it a habit...
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tptguy
Jerome Callet Forum Moderator


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3380
Location: Philadelphia, Pa

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always, always, always thought that my significantly receded lower jaw was my big problem. All my teachers previous to Jerry completely agreed. They gave me lots of exercises to "fix it" - all hugely unsuccessful. Jerry was the first and only one to tell me that I should always leave my jaw in its natural position. He then told me how to fix my embouchure from there. It took me a long time to believe that my receded jaw could actually be an advantage. But now it is. And that's 100% due to Jerry's insight. - Kyle
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elgin
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Joined: 26 Mar 2010
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Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kyle for the reply. I agree. It's all about fixing the tongue, not the jaw.
Elgin
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Justus
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Joined: 19 Mar 2017
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Location: UK/Germany

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought I would resurrect this old thread as I have a very similar experience to OP:

I am a Reinhardt IIIA player (naturally receded jaw but aligned teeth while playing) which caused me some trouble in finding the correct TCE setup. Since, as Elgin already pointed out, jaw and tongue are connected, my tongue is more forward compared to somebody playing with his natural jaw position. If I try to roll in the bottom lip so that the tongue can touch (and press down on) the top of the bottom lip, I find that I cannot play at all. There is simply too much tongue for me to be able to close the lips in that setup.
My first conclusion was that, if I want to continue to play with aligned teeth (which I do), I have to accept a more rolled out bottom lip than is the norm for TCE (but relatively common for IIIA's generally I think). Also, since the lower lip is much thicker this way I am placing the mp a bit in the red of the lower lip which, slightly reassuringly, a surprising number of players with the suspected combination "IIIA + forward tongue" do to a certain degree (examples are: Herb Smith, Adam Rapa, Patrick Hession and Roger Ingram to name a few). Disclaimer: By forward tongue I don't necessarily mean hard core TCE.

However, another subtlety in this setup is where the tip is anchored. I found that the more I trained my tongue, the more problems I would get as I was gradually moving the tip from behind the lower teeth to the front. Exactly as Elgin describes, this lead me to increasingly push the lower lip forward (and out of the cup).
After a lot of experimentation, I figured out that I can only play with my tongue forward if I anchor the tip slightly behind the cutting edge of the bottom teeth. This way, the top of the tongue is in contact with both lips and the bottom teeth give the tongue tip something solid to push forward against.



Hope this experience might help someone with a similar struggle. Looking forward to other contributions or suggestions about my findings of course!
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