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Stripping vs lacquer over


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AwesomeDad
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:38 am    Post subject: Stripping vs lacquer over Reply with quote

Trying to get advice on either stripping the silver plate off a horn then lacquer it. Or have the lacquer applied over the silver plate.I know king and a couple others used to just lacquer over the silver plate but Iíve heard it discolors over time.

JJ
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JoeLoeffler
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The silver starts to look funny over time and there are often potential adhesion problems with the paint. One or the other, not both.

Think about the sound that you want the instrument to make (or to be able to make) and then think about how the potential finishes will assist or detract. Sound first, then cosmetics (for me anyway).
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AwesomeDad
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoeLoeffler wrote:
The silver starts to look funny over time and there are often potential adhesion problems with the paint. One or the other, not both.

Think about the sound that you want the instrument to make (or to be able to make) and then think about how the potential finishes will assist or detract. Sound first, then cosmetics (for me anyway).

I appreciate it. Unfortunately not a lot of information on the effect on sound if lacquered over. A lot of info on stripping then lacquering.

JJ
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver is its own finish. I doesn't need to be covered with lacquer.
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AwesomeDad
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oxleyk wrote:
Silver is its own finish. I doesn't need to be covered with lacquer.

I know this however I was getting a custom lacquer done. My horn is already silver plated.

JJ
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trompette229
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AwesomeDad wrote:
oxleyk wrote:
Silver is its own finish. I doesn't need to be covered with lacquer.

I know this however I was getting a custom lacquer done. My horn is already silver plated.

JJ

I think you may be confused unless you are wanting try try something VERY unusual. Trumpets are generally made from brass. The can be left raw, polished then lacquered or silver plated. Silver plating is the complete finish, you do not lacquer over the top of silver-plate.
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trompette229
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if the source of the confusion may be that you have a horn which is mainly nickel? Nickel will dull to a matte grey appearance if left unlacquered or if the lacquer is comprimised.
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AwesomeDad
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I wasnít clear. I have a horn that is silver plated. I want to get a custom lacquer job done. I have 2 options. Have the silver plate striped, or they offered to lacquer over the silver plate. The first option Iím familiar with. The 2nd I am not and wondered about the long term effects of doing it that way.

JJ
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only advantage to lacquering (clear) over silver is that the silver won't tarnish. If an epoxy lacquer is used it is just one thin coat which is baked on. I think the effect on the sound wuld be negligible.

Stripping silver usually involves acid or perhaps a reverse plating. Either way, the brass will be etched which would require buffing. Buffing removes some metal which could affect the sound for better or for worse.

What is "custom" about the lacquering you are contemplating? The only custom lacquer I have been involved with involved color. We determined that the best result was to do an epoxy coat and then spray automotive lacquer over the epoxy. We couldn't get the color lacquer to adhere to polished brass.
Ed Kennedy - Schilke trained brass tech
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AwesomeDad
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed Kennedy wrote:
The only advantage to lacquering (clear) over silver is that the silver won't tarnish. If an epoxy lacquer is used it is just one thin coat which is baked on. I think the effect on the sound wuld be negligible.

Stripping silver usually involves acid or perhaps a reverse plating. Either way, the brass will be etched which would require buffing. Buffing removes some metal which could affect the sound for better or for worse.

What is "custom" about the lacquering you are contemplating? The only custom lacquer I have been involved with involved color. We determined that the best result was to do an epoxy coat and then spray automotive lacquer over the epoxy. We couldn't get the color lacquer to adhere to polished brass.
Ed Kennedy - Schilke trained brass tech

Yes itís a color choice. I was able to talk to a tech and was assured their process could be done without stripping. I appreciate your feedback.

JJ
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since silver plating is added as a protective finish to brass, it could be that once you get the horn lacquered over the silver, you'll wind up with a finish that is superior to either silver plating or lacquer on its own.

I'm interested to see how this thing turns out - you'll definitely have a unique beast.


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trompette229
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, it's not common to lacquer silver plated instruments. There wouldn't be a point as it would look the same...now that I see you say "custom" are you talking about some sort of deep colored lacquer? If this is what you're talking about then as long as the horn is prepped properly you should be ok but hopefully a more experienced tech could chime in.
You'd get better answers if you gave all of the info, perhaps explain the "custom" lacquer, what color, how deep is the color etc.
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AwesomeDad
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes custom color. And I donít make a living playing but Iím at a point in my life that thereís a few things that are sentimental to me and I figured why not. So I will keep you all posted with before and after pictures. And I really do appreciate all the feed back. And yes I guarantee after itís done there wonít be another one like it anywhere.

JJ
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regardless of who is proposing putting lacquer over silver plate, a rule Iíve come to follow is this: if itís not something that major horn builders commonly do, it might be because itís a bad idea.

Something else I believe: if I have a horn that is radically different in appearance, I had better be able to REALLY play it in order not to just look foolish. Again, if itís RADICALLY different, I donít know if just an unusual color qualifies as radical.

Just my two cents.

Brad


Last edited by Brad361 on Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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homebilly
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i say give it the Harvey Weinstein treatment and buy it a robe
then empty the spit over a potted plant


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Richard III
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratching my head here. Are we talking about blinging out a horn?

[img]blingtrumpet by genevie7, on Flickr[/img]
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trickg
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that some folks haven't been paying attention - they either haven't fully read the thread, or they haven't crossed referenced it with other threads started by AwesomeDad, and don't know his intentions when it comes to this custom finish job on this horn.

To update this for clarity, or OP has a horn that they like (Kanstul 991, right?) but they want it lacquered another color. This means that any current plating will not be seen. At all. We don't have to worry about what it might do to the color of the silver plating - all we have to worry about is the feasibility of having lacquer applied over silver plating.

Doing some quick Google-fu, it appears that this is a big issue among sax players - apparently there is something about silver plating that makes it to where lacquer doesn't stay put as well, and is more prone to flaking or chipping. On the other hand, Montana Silversmith belt buckles are coated with a proprietary coating referred to as "Montana Armor" that does a great job of protecting the plated finishes on their buckles for years.

From what I can gather, often times the biggest issue with lacquer over silver plating is a discoloration of the plating underneath the lacquer, but since this horn is going to be blue and the silver plating won't be seen anyway, I'm not sure how much that would really matter.
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AwesomeDad
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that some folks haven't been paying attention - they either haven't fully read the thread, or they haven't crossed referenced it with other threads started by AwesomeDad, and don't know his intentions when it comes to this custom finish job on this horn.

To update this for clarity, or OP has a horn that they like (Kanstul 991, right?) but they want it lacquered another color. This means that any current plating will not be seen. At all. We don't have to worry about what it might do to the color of the silver plating - all we have to worry about is the feasibility of having lacquer applied over silver plating.

Doing some quick Google-fu, it appears that this is a big issue among sax players - apparently there is something about silver plating that makes it to where lacquer doesn't stay put as well, and is more prone to flaking or chipping. On the other hand, Montana Silversmith belt buckles are coated with a proprietary coating referred to as "Montana Armor" that does a great job of protecting the plated finishes on their buckles for years.

From what I can gather, often times the biggest issue with lacquer over silver plating is a discoloration of the plating underneath the lacquer, but since this horn is going to be blue and the silver plating won't be seen anyway, I'm not sure how much that would really matter.

Thank you that summed it up nicely and yes Iíve talked to a couple techs and both said if prepared correctly lacquer over silver plate wonít be a problem. At least in my lifetime.

JJ
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given a choice, I'd go with the one that involves the least manipulation of the horn prior to lacquering. And it sounds like stripping the silver and buffing could subject the horn to more mechanical stress which could alter the way the way it plays. If lacquering over silver isn't unreasonable I think that'd be a better way to go.
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AwesomeDad
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
Given a choice, I'd go with the one that involves the least manipulation of the horn prior to lacquering. And it sounds like stripping the silver and buffing could subject the horn to more mechanical stress which could alter the way the way it plays. If lacquering over silver isn't unreasonable I think that'd be a better way to go.

Thatís what I thinking and why I was asking.

JJ
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