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Did Claude miss it?


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solo soprano
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:44 pm    Post subject: Did Claude miss it? Reply with quote

skip to 2:40

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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He says he met Claude once -- a long time ago -- and chatted to him for a few hours, not even in a lesson situation, just a casual chat. Somehow I don't think that's anywhere near enough contact for a person to assume they now know everything the other person has to offer. It's like thinking that sitting down with Bill Gates for a couple of hours would make me into an expert at all aspects of computers and business.
A bit of a misguided approach to understanding different pedagogies. Maybe if he had studied with Claude for a few years, but some of what he says Claude taught about the tongue shows he actually has pretty much no real idea what Claude taught about the tongue.
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trumpet56
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The
































































The event of social media such as youtube and facebook has seen the rise of the so called 'internet expert'.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What happened with the post above? Was that supposed to be some dramatic pause for effect? haha
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

True Power Health and Fitness:
Quote:
"He didn't start out "trying" to overpower the instrument. However with the huge amounts of air he proposed along with the EE syllables, forcing the tongue in the back of the throat, it was VERY hard to compress enough to avoid blasting in most cases."


Sigh. This is such a total misrepresentation.

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bach_again
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
True Power Health and Fitness:
Quote:
"He didn't start out "trying" to overpower the instrument. However with the huge amounts of air he proposed along with the EE syllables, forcing the tongue in the back of the throat, it was VERY hard to compress enough to avoid blasting in most cases."


Sigh. This is such a total misrepresentation.



I'd be keen to read your refutation of Ralph's statement. How does he mis-represent the system, and can you show, using CG literature, how he is wrong? Im genuinely curious.

Mike
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you say "SEA" you will get the correct forward tongue position that Claude taught. As far as blasting goes, this is nonsense. Playing with a full, open sound is not blasting. And once you have the power, then you learn to control it. Many of Claude's students can play softly and controlled in the upper register.

Eb
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While first developing / discovering the power inherent to this instrument, most of us needed to sound unrefined, at some point. (Hopefully limited to the practice room)

Any teacher who found a way to harness that as a development tool encountered naysayers who always missed the point, as the guy in the OP did.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bach_again wrote:
Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
True Power Health and Fitness:
Quote:
"He didn't start out "trying" to overpower the instrument. However with the huge amounts of air he proposed along with the EE syllables, forcing the tongue in the back of the throat, it was VERY hard to compress enough to avoid blasting in most cases."


Sigh. This is such a total misrepresentation.



I'd be keen to read your refutation of Ralph's statement. How does he mis-represent the system, and can you show, using CG literature, how he is wrong? Im genuinely curious.

Mike


Hi Mike,

Yours is an excellent question and I'll be happy to try and answer it.

During lessons and during clinics Claude was adamant that the tongue must arch up and forward, and that if one let the back of the tongue arch, the sound would be choked off. He had two framed illustrations of the mouth hanging in his office that were drawn by an anatomical artist. One showed a properly arched tongue (arched up and toward the front of the mouth), and the other showed an incorrectly arched tongue (arched up but toward the back of the mouth). These two illustrations also appear on page 25 of his textbook Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing. Do you not have that book? I think you should – it’s a great book, and one I have a feeling that, based on what he said, is not in Ralph’s library. Here's the relevant section of the page with those illustrations:


https://s25.postimg.org/n5ha0txsf/BPINHTDB_25_top.jpg

Please click on the above image to open it up full-size in a separate window.

Also near the bottom of page 21 in the book where he begins describing the role of the tongue arch, he writes, "It rises and lowers in the front of the mouth with a "to" and "fro" movement." (The word "front" is in italics in the book).

If you go to Jeff Purtle's Website you can access the 2 hour lecture Claude gave at the 1977 ITG conference. In that lecture, when talking about tongue arch, I believe he says the words, "It must never arch in the back of the mouth", or words to that effect.

Concerning air, Ralph, like many others, completely misunderstands what Claude was saying about air. Claude never told anyone to use "huge amounts of air". And in fact, once the student was ready for it, Claude had us doing the Clarkes each in a whisper level sound, many, many times in one breath (ie 16 times in one breath on Clarke #1 all the way to F above High C), and he had us playing all the Clarke Etudes in one breath - some of us could do them this way single tongued in one breath.

Claude was not talking about amounts (volume) of air - he was referring to air power (his words), in other words, the amount of air pressure generated by the blowing muscles that was needed to meet the resistance of the arching tongue when playing higher notes.

What Claude said and wrote, was that when playing higher notes, one needed to “blow stronger”, “use a little more power”, and/ or "step on the gas". In Systematic Approach he wrote:

Quote:
"As you ascend and the tongue moves to the syllable "EEE," you must blow stronger to meet the resistance."


In Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing he wrote:

Quote:
As you go higher you must use a little more power or get stronger.
At first this must be noticeable, you get louder. Later, as this is controlled, you can use more power without it being noticeable.


I find it interesting how Ralph has changed "a little more power" into "huge amounts of air". Though in reality, that's not a fair assessment. I doubt Ralph has read those words from that book. As he admits, Ralph is basing his opinion of what and how Claude taught on a single informal conversation he had with Claude more than 30 years ago. And it shows.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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homebilly
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm so glad to know that claude almost had it right.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

homebilly wrote:
I'm so glad to know that claude almost had it right.


And I just spit beer out of my mouth.

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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bach_again wrote:
Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
True Power Health and Fitness:
Quote:
"He didn't start out "trying" to overpower the instrument. However with the huge amounts of air he proposed along with the EE syllables, forcing the tongue in the back of the throat, it was VERY hard to compress enough to avoid blasting in most cases."


Sigh. This is such a total misrepresentation.



I'd be keen to read your refutation of Ralph's statement. How does he mis-represent the system, and can you show, using CG literature, how he is wrong? Im genuinely curious.

Mike


Hey Mike,

Would have been happy to, but John has beaten me to it. However, his reply is pretty much exactly what I would have written anyway.

I think the blasting thing is because in SA there are some instructions like 'Don't hold back' and "put air through your horn" and "full sound" "step on the gas" etc. but nowhere will you find any suggestion to actually play loudly.
I believe all of these are meant as suggestions simply to increase your energy as you go higher. Certainly, the actual amount of air entering the instrument as you play higher gets less, but the energy increases.
That's how I understand it - stepping on the gas is the feeling of energising the air. I don't think it's an instruction to go full blastissimo, although I understand that some might interpret it that way.
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oxleyk wrote:

Link


Maxwell Smart, yes. Claude Gordon, not so much (as in, not at all).

I will say this about Ralph: I responded in the comments section of his YouTube video with some pretty critical (but fair) observations. His replies to me were dignified and showed him to be a true gentleman.

Cheers,

John Mohan
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this guy TCE? It looks like it and sound a little like it?

If it looks like it and sound like it, is it it?
Rod
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
Is this guy TCE? It looks like it and sound a little like it?

If it looks like it and sound like it, is it it?
Rod


Ralph is a long-time student of Jerry Callet. I've seen a lot of his videos and he clearly has questionable sanity. He cannot explain anything very well and there is no evidence of musical ability either.

Just to address your question in the typically annoying way: TCE is a method that is derived from Callet's teaching but it is not the same thing. Most people don't know this fact. TCE is taught using a system with exercises and a clear path of development.
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tim_wolf
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just discovered this guy on YouTube. He has several videos like this one, such as how Arnold Jacobs was wrong.

Here is the one I watched part of, until I couldn't stand anymore.


Link


To me (and I commented as such), after hearing his Pictures, it's obvious that he has no concept of orchestral style or sound. To quote Mark Gould, he sounds like a trumpet meathead. His reply stated that he is formerly Principal Trumpet of the North Carolina Opera, performed at the Met, and studied with Vacchiano. I don't want to call the guy a liar, but I guarantee if he was in the NC Opera, his sound wasn't like this then. He wouldn't have even made it to the end of Pictures before he would have heard "thank you." What would you orchestral guys think if you heard an audition that sounded like this? Would he even play two excerpts?

Maybe he's like his teacher Callet; didn't have the range he wanted, got totally obsessed with playing high and loud, then he got hooked up with Jerry, and all his tone and musical skills went out the window. I'm sure he also uses a small, shallow mouthpiece. Yea, that works great for orchestral playing.

I normally don't criticize players/teachers, but when they make videos basically badmouthing the best players and teachers in the world, sound like crap themselves, sometimes I can't keep my mouth shut.

No, I don't agree with everything Claude taught, but I'm never going to bad mouth him, since he was a world class player, and produced world class players. I'd just love (not!) to hear the students of this guy.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never heard anything by this method that involved precise use of tongue or a clean articulation. I'd would love to know how it could be done. I listened to Bahb and didn't hear clean articulation but he was playing baroque trumpet and I know nothing of that sound so I may be mistaken.
Rod
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
I have never heard anything by this method that involved precise use of tongue or a clean articulation. I'd would love to know how it could be done. I listened to Bahb and didn't hear clean articulation but he was playing baroque trumpet and I know nothing of that sound so I may be mistaken.
Rod


Rod, this conversation won’t last long in the Gordon forum because you’re asking about things that relate to Callet. I’ve shared videos on here and on YouTube and Facebook that demonstrate exactly as you’re asking. Both of my websites listed in my signature contain multimedia that show both technical fluency and musicality.

I stand by what I said before. Ralph is misbehaving as a means to gain attention and you guys are giving it to him. No serious student of music or the trumpet would be inspired by his demonstrations so it’s probably best to just leave him to it.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
I have never heard anything by this method that involved precise use of tongue or a clean articulation. I'd would love to know how it could be done. I listened to Bahb and didn't hear clean articulation but he was playing baroque trumpet and I know nothing of that sound so I may be mistaken.
Rod


Hi Rod,

With the caveat that I personally think you are better off practicing using the material and methods Claude Gordon (and many others) used and taught with, trumpetplanet has placed two URL addresses in his signature, and from the name of one of the websites and based on trumpetplanet's sane and coherent posts here and elsewhere, I'm sure they both will have good, clear information on the TCE methodology:

http://trumpetpla.net
http://tonguecontrolled.info

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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