Question on sluggish valve (only when playing)

ammonshea · Regular Member Joined: 03 Jun 2015 Posts: 17 Location: NYC

Hello - this may well have been covered at some point in the past, but I've followed the suggestions given in a few previous threads and had no luck, so I'm posting the question once again.
I have a Martin Handcraft Committee from 1940 and the 2nd valve is sluggish, but only when I'm playing, and only once in a while. It happens enough to be a bother, but it isn't consistent. The horn was just chem cleaned by Josh Landress, and had some other work done as well - his shop has always done spectacular work and I don't think this case is any exception (meaning I doubt that they missed something).
What I've done already:
cleaned the knuckles
tried various brands of oil (Hetmans, Ultra Pure, Berp Bio)
tried different thicknesses (1, 2, and 3 of Berp)
tried heavy oiling and light
Any suggestions? There's no sign of damage, the compression is good, and the techs didn't seem to think there were any issues with the valves.

TKSop · Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:19 am Post subject:

Purely as it's something that's come up in another thread (the one about Lou's Bach)...

Albert (dr_trumpet) has suggested that everso slightly bent valvestems can bring up issues sometimes - it makes perfect sense to me having read it that it could happen, but I'd never have thought of it.

dstdenis · Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:25 am Post subject:

I've had two instruments do that. The valves would get sluggish as the horn warmed up, as if something was expanding from the heat. In both cases, the problem was solved by using a thinner oil (Monster Faster, in these cases).

Both of these instruments were new, but your Martin is old. Has it had a valve job? If not, I wonder if the 2nd valve slide has been bumped slightly, putting pressure on the casing, just enough to bind as the horn warms up?
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ammonshea · Regular Member Joined: 03 Jun 2015 Posts: 17 Location: NYC

It does seem to become more of an issue as the horn warms up, and the issue is slightly lessened with a lighter oil. I'll give Monster Faster a try - thanks.
I do not believe it has ever had a valve job.

CJceltics33 · Veteran Member Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475

I had the same problem! All three of my valves were HORRIBLE. Here's what I did and what I do now:

When I had the problem, I used a cheap oil. The store brand. Worked a bit after application, but I needed to use it every time I played for 30 minutes or more.

To fix it, I first got my trunpet cleaned. Told him to pay particular attention to the valves.

I switched to La Tromba t2

Before I oil my valves, I wipe them clean with a rag. Every time.

Now, I oil my valves about once a week. Don't need anything more. Just a wipe with a rag and a slight amount of oil. I never even thought it possible my valves would be this good again-I was considering having them replaced or even a new horn. I strongly recommend to you to do what I did. Good luck!

zaferis · Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:08 pm Post subject:

by "sluggish" can I assume that's in the upward movement only? (you can consistently move the valve down but it hangs up on the upward stroke)
And this only happens when you play? not when you're just working the valve, in practice mode?

This, I've experienced, with older trumpets... if your finger pressure is a bit off center, this can cause the old valve to shift just enough to rub on the way up. You note that this happens more frequently when warm - this goes along with this supposition: the valve casing will warm more than the valve cylinder (because your left hand is on the outside warming it up) increasing the ability of the valve to wobble. Add a slighlty off axis push and the grip/pull pressure of playing then the spring is not strong enough to pop the valve back up without hesitation.

just my 1 cent guess...

Check your mechanics and make an effort to keep the valves perfectly vertical.
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Halflip · Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:39 pm Post subject:

I had a similar problem with my early 50's Martin Committee. Charlie Melk restored it for me. The valves had no perceptible side-to-side play, and when Charlie tested them they all had very good compression, so aside from cleaning we left them alone (no rebuild).

When I played the horn, the valves would periodically drag and act sluggish (especially the second valve); it happened frequently enough to be an annoyance.

I tried cleaning the pistons and cylinders with a grease-cutting dishwashing liquid a couple of times, and also experimented with different weight oils, all without success.

Then someone suggested soaking the pistons in rubbing alcohol for a couple of hours. I tried it, after which I again degreased the pistons and applied some Hetman's #1. Voila! -- problem solved (never to return).

I would guess that sometimes the pistons of decades-old horns can develop a very stubborn, very thin build-up that promotes draggy, sluggish valve action.

I've heard that soaking the pistons in a water/vinegar solution can also be effective.