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Lynn Nicholson X-Piece as an MF style equivalent?



 
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VintageFTW
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:22 am    Post subject: Lynn Nicholson X-Piece as an MF style equivalent? Reply with quote

Just asking out of curiosity. I have found that my ideal setup legitimately is a very small I.D. ultra shallow V cup with a wide, flat rim and I was wondering about the X-Piece as it may be a good alternative to per say, a Ratzenburger Jet-Tone MF. For obvious reasons I probably won't be able to find an original Jet-Tone, but I was wondering... Has anybody had any actual success using these mouthpieces in place of another mouthpiece of this style? Any input is appreciated, thanks.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Several mouthpiece shops make accurate reproductions of all the mouthpiece designs Maynard played, from the original Callicchio (holy grail), the Jettones, Monettes, etc. Check out Roger Ingram's site, Steve Patrick's site, Legends, etc.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey VMF, I use the X-Piece as a training tool the way Lynn Nicholson describes. It really does help my efficiency and everything on other mouthpieces. The diameter is quite bit smaller than the original Ratzenberger MF jet-tone - which is one of the reasons I dig it so much. Just a couple of days ago, I received this one from Derek at Legends: https://www.legendsbrass.com/legends-jt-super-c.html

This one has around the same diameter feel as the X-Piece but it's even more extreme with the cup and absolutely no bite. I am still training myself to play it. A great exercise in efficiency!

If you want to use this type of equipment to improve your physical efficiency, I would recommend getting Lynn's 'Mindless Hardware Technology' which is the rim and the X-Piece and, then, after a couple of months.. get the Legends Super C piece. All the very best, Lex
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superviking805
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been playing the X-Piece for almost a year and experimenting with V-cups for about half that. When I first got the X-Piece I gave it the name Chainsaw as it had a loud raw sound. I can play it much better now, and really enjoy the ease and comfort, but will never use it as my primary lead piece as there are other MF types that work a bit better for me.

The X-Piece rim does not feel flat, I really can't feel it much at all. I notice my chops in the cup supported by the convex V. I haven't tried the Super C but have a MF HG that has a very flat feeling rim with a shallow cup, this one works better all around compared to the X-Piece.

Get an X-Piece with the reversible rim to practice the Protocol but check out Legends MP for all their MF variations.
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burnhamd
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:32 am    Post subject: MF Protocol Reply with quote

Like Lex said XPiece and the Rim are essential. I like the Legends Brass HG and all of Derek’s MF models. The MF Monster is a really good piece as well.
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is kind of an old thread, but I thought I'd dredge it up in the hopes of getting some new feedback.

I had a chance to visit with a trumpet buddy yesterday and experiment with some of the Nicholson mouthpieces. I think they're actually made by Jim New? Anyway, he had both the Xpiece with the reversible practice rim, as well as the Nicholson Personal, which is a tiny bit less extreme.

First off, I've never really experimented with MF-style v-cups before. At the most, I played a few seconds on an old Jet Tone and could barely get anything out of it. I have to say, I'm both frustrated and amazed by these things after spending about an hour with them yesterday.

First of all, Lynn makes comments in one of his videos about how you don't have to sacrifice anything with your tone to play on such small pieces. I'm absolutely convinced I haven't really figured them out yet, because I definitely sound very thin and airy on them. Less so on the personal than the Xpiece, but definitely *not* the sound I would like out of either of them. Admittedly, I could probably improve on that over time with some practice and working with the rim by itself.

The thing that did sort of blow me away was how easy they were to get around on up high, things like slurs and shakes are just crazy simple compared to even another shallow piece with a more conventional cup shape. Extremely comfortable, no bite issues or sensation of pinching. I will say I felt tired afterward, but sort of all across the chops and outside the corners, a different feeling from a heavy workout on a more conventional piece. It must be working things radically differently, even if I don't understand how or why.

My main worry is a question about changes to the chops to work my way into playing one of these regularly. Does it require things to be done differently to the degree where I couldn't easily go back to a more conventional 'legit' piece for other types of playing?

There is apparently yet another variation on these Nicholson pieces, called the Lpiece which is deeper than the Personal model and with not quite such a wide throat, which I haven't got to try out at all. A bit expensive to play the trial and error game with though.

For those of you that do use one or more of these pieces, how easy/difficult do you find it to get not only an easier high range, but a full sound out of them? Also, can you switch back to more typical C-cup style piece for other types of playing, or do you feel like you need to play a V-cup for everything?
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RandyTX wrote:
For those of you that do use one or more of these pieces, how easy/difficult do you find it to get not only an easier high range, but a full sound out of them? Also, can you switch back to more typical C-cup style piece for other types of playing, or do you feel like you need to play a V-cup for everything?


I own and play the Lynn Nicholson Monette Prana (XLT); Lynn Nicholson Personal mouthpiece; Ingram/Pickett MF 1950's reproduction mouthpiece; Patrick MF 1 (all of those are based off of Maynard's 1950 V-Cup mouthpiece) and Greg Black's Girardinelli MF 1 - also a small v-cup mouthpiece though a tad deeper than the previously mentioned pieces. I also own the Marcinkiewicz Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece(s) #22 drill and #20 drill; a Marcinkiewicz Model 6 mouthpiece; a Patrick 12C mouthpiece and a Mt. Vernon Bach 10.5C. I usually begin my legit practice on a bowl shaped 10.5C size "legit" C-cup mouthpiece and end each session on a very small V-cup mouthpiece for my range studies. However, I can also play on the larger/deeper Marcinkiewicz Claude Gordon Personal mouthpieces and then go to a small v-cup for range. I have no problem mixing any of them up at anytime. I DO NOT use much mouthpiece presure and I do use a lot of air.

Trying to play a small shallow bowl cup mouthpiece with a #28 throat and tight back-bore is where I encounter my issues.

All of the above mentioned mouthpieces are in the 10.5C inner diameter range and thus, feel very comfortable to me even though the rims are drastically different.

Hope this is helpful.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Randy, hopefully more people will chime in on this as I can only speak from my personal experience. But what I find is that playing on the MF style mouthpiece only gives positive benefit to my playing on more conventional mouthpieces. I would definitely recommend working with the rim buzzing the way Lynn recommends, and going to the X-piece - as he recommends in the 'mindless hardware technology'.

I can definitely get a very full sound out of the MF design pieces. But I find they are just like more conventional pieces in the sense that a shallow cup still gives a big, bright lead sound and a deeper cup gives a small group jazz/classical sound. I don't need to switch to any other design to play any style of music because I have the shallowest, brightest designs in the X-Piece and the Jim Manley Lead3. (BTW, yes Jim New makes Lynn's pieces and Manley's). So I can go from the Manley Lead3 - to the Jazz1 - to the Legends Holton MF1 - to the Legends FBL TS - to the TM. Each one of these pieces is a straight V cup design with the Maynard 50's style rim, what is changing in them is that they are getting deeper and deeper respectively. The TM is quite a deep straight V cup. To the point where I have played it in my flugel before when it gets loud on a jazz gig and I don't want to switch to trumpet. And, then, there is the deep Pickett MF flugel piece I play which gets a beautiful, dark sound. I have the same range and endurance on all these pieces. Of course I use the right tool for the job. I wouldn't want to use my Legends TM to play a lot of loud, high lead playing..that would probably mess things up in my playing after awhile..I'd just be working too hard.

Being such a 'mouthpiece geek', I still like to experiment with other designs like the Reeves High Efficiency 39EX/HV..or the Curry 10.5XS to BC.. These days, I am thinking that at least training on the MF style pieces..or, at least, practicing rim buzzing, is necessary for me to keep establishing the muscle memory of the lip position. Nowadays, I know that if I start to feel that I'm not feeling it in my 'core muscles' as I play high and loud, that I'd better get back to the MF design and do practices on that, such as the Cat Anderson 20min G with the teeth closed at p/mp...or make sure I'm doing the rim buzzing several times a day for a few minutes.

Hope this helps! All the best, Lex

p.s. - When I first decided to try to get used to the MF style pieces, it took me several months to get really comfortable and be able to play them just like any other mouthpiece. I find even doing that, made my playing more efficient..and this was before I started experimenting with Lynn's concepts, etc.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RussellDDixon wrote:

Trying to play a small shallow bowl cup mouthpiece with a #28 throat and tight back-bore is where I encounter my issues.


I don't know what the backbore is in the Manley piece, but the throat is 30. And we are talking about a very shallow MF straight V design. (There is a cool shot of the profile on Jim New's site). I agree with Lynn when he says that you can use a bigger throat on the MF design pieces more successfully. But I find a smaller throat works very well too! I think Roger Ingram's V-cup, based on several MF mouthpiece designs including the HG is a 30 throat, and that piece plays great. Anyway, I find the MF rim and cup design to be a very versatile and efficient design indeed. Best, Lex
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljazztrm wrote:
p.s. - When I first decided to try to get used to the MF style pieces, it took me several months to get really comfortable and be able to play them just like any other mouthpiece. I find even doing that, made my playing more efficient..and this was before I started experimenting with Lynn's concepts, etc.


This is interesting, mostly because I was pretty convinced I was doing something fundamentally wrong with my first attempts on the v-cup pieces he had, because I pretty much had the sort of airy tone on them that I usually associate in my head with a 'beginner band' sound.

I'd really need to figure out what I was doing wrong that lead to that before I could seriously consider performing publicly with any of them.

Would you say when you *first* tried playing them, that you had a noticeable difference in the sound/tone you got out of the horn? Perhaps I'm just approaching them totally wrong?
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RussellDDixon wrote:
I can also play on the larger/deeper Marcinkiewicz Claude Gordon Personal mouthpieces and then go to a small v-cup for range. I have no problem mixing any of them up at anytime.


That's good news. I've heard various reports, but never heard him say it himself, but I thought party of Lynn Nicholson's approach had something to do with 'unfurling' the chops while playing on these pieces.

I tried something along those lines, with very unsatisfactory results, but that was only a tiny percentage of the time I spent going back and forth between the models mentioned above and my normal setup.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Randy, thanks for these great questions - because it is making me think about my own approach and what happens nowadays when I play.

Quote:
Would you say when you *first* tried playing them, that you had a noticeable difference in the sound/tone you got out of the horn? Perhaps I'm just approaching them totally wrong?


When I first tried to play the MF design, I remember the horn would just 'shut off' on me. Like, I would be ascending and the sound would stop. I didn't try to manipulate my embouchure in any way, and just approached this MF design like I played any other mouthpiece. It got better and better after several weeks. I spent a portion of my practice day using them while playing with jazz albums and play-alongs. I was, and still do, try to implement all these concepts into the music I'm playing to make it feel as natural as possible. After 2 or 3 months I just got to the point where playing the MF design mouthpiece was like playing any other mouthpiece..I noticed no difference in switching between this design and others. Perhaps even back then, playing the MF design caused my chops to 'unfurl' somewhat.

Quote:

That's good news. I've heard various reports, but never heard him say it himself, but I thought party of Lynn Nicholson's approach had something to do with 'unfurling' the chops while playing on these pieces.

I tried something along those lines, with very unsatisfactory results, but that was only a tiny percentage of the time I spent going back and forth between the models mentioned above and my normal setup.


When I first started Lynn's approach, before he introduced the 'mindless hardware technology', I did try to consciously unfurl my chops while playing the horn the way I felt I did when rim buzzing.. I could get some very loud, high sounds out of the horn, but there was no real control. My opinion of the MHT is that he designed it to get the player to naturally transition to a more unfurled position. When I do the rim buzzing and, then, go to the X-piece, my chops are in a more naturally unfurled position. I have no loss of control and everything feels like it usually does when playing. While practicing, if not practicing on the X-piece, these days I usually use the Manley Jazz1 or the Legends MF1. This is because these are 2 of my most versatile pieces - they are a medium shallow and medium depth straight V-cup I would say, respectively. Kind of like playing a Bach 'D' and 'C' cup - to give a comparison.

I think in all of this, an important aspect is to keep your playing as natural feeling and relaxed as possible. Something like the unfurled movement is very subtle, even though it can make a big difference. I feel the idea is to just integrate this approach into your playing naturally where the new efficiency just kind of 'takes over' in the course of your playing. All the best, Lex
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just experimented today using High Notes For Trumpet by Allen Vizzutti. I rotated a Marcinkiewicz Ingram, Marcinkiewicz Shew 1, Greg Black NY Legend MF 1. I could play the first studies working up to a very soft High G on both the Ingram and v-cup MF 1. The Greg Black MF 1 was by far the easiest mouthpiece for me to play.

From my on experimentation, I have found that I play much better and easier on straight v-cups whether small and shallow or deeper.

I believe this is because I have very small thin chops; anchor on my top right lip; prefer a high alpha angle to anchor my chops and unfurl into the cup although my actual unfurling area is very small due to my chops being small. I instantly noticed a great improvement on my playing and range just using the v cups.

Just my experience
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MF Fan
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played a Patrick MF1 exclusively for over a year. I have no public playing obligations, so had the luxury of time to experiment without embarrassing myself, other than having the dogs get up and leave the room. I had a fat lower register, even down through the pedals. Loved the sound in all registers and the upper register did come easier. That said, I wasn’t able to seamlessly connect all registers. I was hitting notes up to double D, but not repeatably on demand in a way that I would ever be able to play on a gig. I eventually switched over to a Patrick BS5, which is still a relative small mouthpiece with a 40/64” diameter and shallow cup. It’s based on the old Jettone 5B, which is reportedly close to the original Chase model. I’m finding this is a great mouthpiece for me, and have had a lot more success employing the MF protocol. Legit DHC virtually on demand, and I haven’t sacrificed anything in the low to mid register. I found the MF1 actually was a barrier to fully realizing the benefits of the MF protocol. Lynn talks about the small v-cups as a training tool, which I guess worked for me, but not as an everyday piece.
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all for the helpful comments on this. I may just have to break out the CC and cough up for some of these pieces. The last thing I want to do is go on another Safari, but there might be some long-term benefits to this, especially the rim, that could pay off everywhere.

I just have to figure out how to get a sound out of them that isn't more like a dying calf in a hailstorm than a trumpet, then see how it goes.
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MF Fan wrote:
I played a Patrick MF1 exclusively for over a year. I have no public playing obligations, so had the luxury of time to experiment without embarrassing myself, other than having the dogs get up and leave the room. I had a fat lower register, even down through the pedals. Loved the sound in all registers and the upper register did come easier. That said, I wasn’t able to seamlessly connect all registers. I was hitting notes up to double D, but not repeatably on demand in a way that I would ever be able to play on a gig. I eventually switched over to a Patrick BS5, which is still a relative small mouthpiece with a 40/64” diameter and shallow cup. It’s based on the old Jettone 5B, which is reportedly close to the original Chase model. I’m finding this is a great mouthpiece for me, and have had a lot more success employing the MF protocol. Legit DHC virtually on demand, and I haven’t sacrificed anything in the low to mid register. I found the MF1 actually was a barrier to fully realizing the benefits of the MF protocol. Lynn talks about the small v-cups as a training tool, which I guess worked for me, but not as an everyday piece.


Hey MF Fan. I thought it would be a propros to paste an old post by Lynn:

"If you play with a very relaxed vibrating surface, yes, the XPiece can be used as a primary piece. The XPiece has a very small sweet spot, though, so you must be very vigilant of precision. As you have noted, the sound is also a bit more compact, but tremendously "present" live, almost to the point of intimidating. Toward the end of the tutorial, I think you can hear that the Vintage (used here as my primary piece) gets a bigger and more balanced sound. This difference is more apparent in person, so I prefer the bigger, more balanced sound.

The XPiece was created a couple of years ago as a personal tool for making the small v-cups' play-ability easier and more precise. To that end, the XPiece has served me well, so made same available to others. When I used to teach privately, rims were hard to come by, so I also made the Reversible Rim available, to further accelerate implementation of the MF Protocol.

I will add that lots of players overlook the importance of the Reversible Rim. When you can play controlled extreme upper register melodies on the RR with a big sound, vibrating all the way across as I do, you will "own" the physical aspects of the trumpet. On the rim, EVERYTHING must come from within.

Notice the way these rim buzzing examples defy conventional thinking. The hole size is .520". Backbore--what backbore? The cup is infinitely deep. Gap--what gap? There is absolutely no acoustic reflection to cause the chops to vibrate. I'm vibrating all the way across (look at the video to verify), so the chops must be vibrating faster as I ascend. I also get louder/bigger, the higher I go. How is this possible? Most of the "science" that so many alleged "experts" claim to understand falls completely away, and that IS the paradoxical essence of the MF Protocol--it defies logic, but it works..... "
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MF Fan
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Lex. I created my own practice rim by cutting up a Bach 12CW, which happens to be close in size to my Patrick BS5. I think working on that rim to learn the MF Protocol has benefited my playing more than anything I've done over the past couple of years, even more than learning to play the MF1 V-cup. It led me to a new anchor-point and new way of setting up my chops. Both things really opened up my sound and taken me into the upper register beyond anything I've ever experienced before. I wish I had realized these learnings back in my high school and college days when I was playing everyday. I touch the horn no more than every other day for an hour or so, yet I have more power and range than I've every had. I really up-ends the concept that the secret to developing the physical side of the horn requires years of progressively greater stress, i.e. like building muscular strength as a weight lifter. For me it has been all about finding the optimal chop set and right-sized equipment. I've also found the MF Protocol not only gets me consistently to DHC, but I also have a much more solid feel and full sound between G on top of the staff up to high F. Anything above that I switch over to the Protocol. Playing on the rim alone was the key that unlocked it for me, it's a great teacher.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah MF Fan, the rim is pretty amazing at what it does to our playing mechanism. I was just writing on another thread and talking about how, several days ago, I was working a lot with the rim and X-Piece and my chops have automatically gone into a Superchops-style position - Where I am tonguing through my teeth throughout all registers and my embouchure is very forward. Even though I learned Superchops from Callet years back, doing it this way, where it just comes automatically, just makes it fit seamlessly into my playing. Like I'm saying nothing else really changed..I just realized I'm playing this way now. Pretty amazing how it just happened. It feels very comfortable and the sound is HUGE with a lot of overtones throughout the range of the horn.. Best, Lex
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