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Producing a dark sound


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trumpet56
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my 2 cents. I don't believe any sound should be labelled dark or bright. It should consist of an optimal balance of core and overtones making the sound vibrant, rich and resonant no matter what brass instrument we play. This is my definition of a good tone. No matter whether you like Bud or Maynard their tones carried these characteristics.
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trumpetman.rob
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Pretty words, but I've been around professional trumpeters for a very long time and I have never heard of one trumpet player confusing "dark" for "dull". I don't know of one trumpeter who seeks a dull sound.

Do you know who George Coble is?
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Nonsense Eliminator
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Pretty words, but I've been around professional trumpeters for a very long time and I have never heard of one trumpet player confusing "dark" for "dull". I don't know of one trumpeter who seeks a dull sound.

You must not know very many trumpet players.

Nobody sets out to produce a dull tone. (Well, I'm sure somebody has...) But many, many players attempt a dark tone (or any number of similarly ambiguous kinds of goal) and end up producing a fundamentally unhealthy and aesthetically unappealing sound. Many developing orchestral players seem to go through this phase.
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has the OP (CJceltics33) responded to the request to describe what sound he's aiming for? We may all discussing something that's totally irrelevant to him. I'd like him to mention a player who's sound he wants to emulate before I join in.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

George, Richard and Jay,

While I agree with you that nobody should be trying to play with a dull sound, the idea that one should never attempt to brighten or darken their sound to blend with others and/or play with a reasonably correct timbre for the playing situation is in my opinion, a bit lacking in reality. If I had shown up as a section sub in the Radio Symphony Orchestra Berlin with the same equipment and sound I was using and producing when playing 1st trumpet for Cats in Hamburg, I would not have been called back. And the reverse is equally true.


Nonsense Eliminator wrote:
Nobody sets out to produce a dull tone. (Well, I'm sure somebody has...) But many, many players attempt a dark tone (or any number of similarly ambiguous kinds of goal) and end up producing a fundamentally unhealthy and aesthetically unappealing sound. Many developing orchestral players seem to go through this phase.


But this I agree with. Been there; done that.

Cheers,

John Mohan
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nonsense Eliminator wrote:
You must not know very many trumpet players.

I don't doubt your experience, but maybe I have just been lucky. My experience spans half a century with experiencing starting at North Texas, through D.C. Service bands, to both symphonic work and pop bands in Germany for two decades, and I personally have never worked with a trumpet player who played with a dull sound.

Now they may have gotten a dull sound in the short run, aiming for a dark sound, or may have had some chop problems that need to be worked out, and maybe that's what we're talking about here, but in the long run, I really haven't known anyone who settled for a "dull' sound; who made that their goal.
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have used the term dull. It is not describing what the player is “trying” to produce. It is describing the sound of the horn. Some horns sound dull to me, others might say dark. Devoid of any brilliance or colorful overtones and little resonance is not dark to me it is dull… but that is okay I seem dull to many!

Best, Jon
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So now off to the races.

It has been answered but why not throw it back in the ring. The mouthpiece is the easiest way to change the color of your sound.

I use 2 mouthpieces, like John I had 2 different requirements and I used equipment that made this much easier for me and my sound was more acceptable for the section and style. I played what I lovingly called “the penalty box” in concert band. (2nd Trumpet 3rd Cornet).

On the 1st half I used a deeper mouthpiece, one that had more cup volume and a darker tone. I did this to blend with the section. Why? The professional player looks for the best outcome for the group. Blending makes for a good section sound and a much better product, as does intonation.

On the second half I played a shallower mouthpiece, one with less cup volume and a brighter sound. I was tasked with playing lead on show tunes or quasi rock tunes. Many were writen well above the staff. This required a “Vegas” or “Hollywood” style and sound. The mouthpiece change helped me get the appropriate sound for the style.

Bobby Shew has and or used several mouthpieces for different jobs. I took his advice to heart. I moved away from trying to do everything with a middle of the road mouthpiece and found gear that made both ends of the spectrum much easier and provided a more appropriate sound.

If you would like to argue this approach please address your comments on the matter to Mr. Bobby Shew; after all he is the one that convinced me. Or, discus the merits of using different mouthpieces with classical players that use different mouthpieces on D/Eb, or Pic

Best, Jon
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read a number of posts on TH disparaging the term "dark" as a descriptor for sound. So let me ask this question, how would you describe Chris Botti's sound? Personally, I don't think that dark is any less satisfactory than any other adjective the occurs to me.

So, again, If Chris Botti's sound isn't dark, what is it?

Warm regards,
Grits
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grits Burgh wrote:
I've read a number of posts on TH disparaging the term "dark" as a descriptor for sound. So let me ask this question, how would you describe Chris Botti's sound? Personally, I don't think that dark is any less satisfactory than any other adjective the occurs to me.

So, again, If Chris Botti's sound isn't dark, what is it?

Warm regards,
Grits


Resonant and full with a lush density.
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Resonant and full with a lush density.


You silver tongued devil, you.

Warm regards,
Grits
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grits Burgh wrote:
how would you describe Chris Botti's sound? If Chris Botti's sound isn't dark, what is it?

I think his sound changes from phrase to phrase. One moment, he's playing very softly and gently in the low to mid register. I'd call that dark. Next, he's letting rip with a soaring phrase in the upper register. I'd call that bright.

Some of the discussion in this thread seems to imply that a trumpeter's timbre is fixed and unchangeable unless he gets a different instrument or mouthpiece. I don't think so. Trumpeters change their timbre all the time, from dark to bright as the music changes, within the confines of their abilities and what their equipment allows. One can get different equipment to move the boundaries, but there's lots of room to maneuver within these boundaries.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grits Burgh wrote:
I've read a number of posts on TH disparaging the term "dark" as a descriptor for sound. So let me ask this question, how would you describe Chris Botti's sound? Personally, I don't think that dark is any less satisfactory than any other adjective the occurs to me.

So, again, If Chris Botti's sound isn't dark, what is it?

Warm regards,
Grits


Mellow?
Warm?
Rich?
At times, somewhat diffuse?
"Dark" could work, but in my own opinion and perception of sound, a dark sound is brilliant, full, complete and balanced: the aural equivalent of "opaque" - as if there is some solidity to the sound. All of the above could be used to describe Chris Botti's sound.

I think there is also an aspect of sound that people consider "bright" and that's a sound that has an edge, that cuts above others. To me this isn't brightness, but more a perception of broadness and core, or lack thereof.

In my own playing, I strive to have the most complete sound possible. Some people describe it as dark, others call it bright. It's just my sound.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Describing sound is like describing the taste of chocolate.

If you have to ask, you'll never know.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like many aspiring players, I used to think that aiming for a dark sound was the be all and end all. (This was in senior HS) All it did was see me try so much that I ended up with the opposite, a tight harsh sound as I used deeper cups and larger rims.

As I studied in college and got set straight my sound concept went from vague terminology to much more concrete ideals: a resonant, singing sound which suited the music I was playing. Today, that stands and the sound will depend on what is being played. Bolero is not going to sound like a Shostakovich piano concerto. Blue in Green isn't going to send like Gershwin. Etc.

With kids, many seem to just have no clue as to what a trumpet (or anything) sounds like. Listening? Never. The result is usually a flawed technique and a tight, nasal or harsh , or pinched sound, as they try to play the 'notes' at any cost.

And it's like a communicable disease. One plays like this, then the younger ones copy that unconsciously and you have a 'tradition' of nasty, hash playing...

But I digress. Back to a sound concept, It can be enough to just think of a more singing character, or a more incisive articulation to adjust one's sound to the situation. And this can change almost phrase by phrase... Dark I don't us as a sound descriptor any more.

cheers

Andy
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

derekthor wrote:
"Dark" sounds are over-rated. I recall a masterclass at UT-Austin given by Paul Merkelo where this subject came up.

P.M. "You have a very dark sound."
Student "Thank you"
P.M. "That wasn't a compliment. A sound that's too dark is lifeless and dull."
......


While I don’t know if a “dark” sound is necessarily lifeless, though it can be, I try to help my students realize that “dark” doesn’t always equal “good”, and “bright” does not equal “bad.” I think because kids in school concert band programs are sometimes repeatedly told to strive for “dark” (which is generally appropriate for concert band), they get the idea that bright equals bad. Sure, tone color appropriate for the genre is correct, but a trumpet is still a trumpet, it’s not a flugel.

Brad
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
While I don’t know if a “dark” sound is necessarily lifeless, though it can be, I try to help my students realize that “dark” doesn’t always equal “good”, and “bright” does not equal “bad.” I think because kids in school concert band programs are sometimes repeatedly told to strive for “dark” (which is generally appropriate for concert band), they get the idea that bright equals bad. Sure, tone color appropriate for the genre is correct, but a trumpet is still a trumpet, it’s not a flugel.

Brad

Absolutely. A classic example is this London Symphony Orchestra recording of Shostakovich's Festive Overture. Lots of energy, and the brass were burning down the house. Is that a bad thing?


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Dave CCM/SSO
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello All,

I am of the opinion that "trying" to produce a "darker" sound is counter productive. I've heard countless students ruin their endurance and upper register because they are manipulating their oral cavity in order to produce a "darker" sound.

I believe that we should be developing our technique and sound in such a way that we get as much resonance and "shimmer" as possible. This will allow for the most efficient production of tone and flexibility through the full range of the instrument. I believe that many people try to develop their skills with their tongues too far back and down. I think that we should all be thinking more "ooh" and "eeh" inside of our mouths as apposed to "AAH". Many of the best players talk about the back of their tongue actually being in contact with their top teeth for much of the time. The front of the tongue is free to move up and down as needed.

Daily Note bending, lead pipe buzzing on the higher partials, and lip flexibility studies are all great ways to find the best tongue placement for optimal "shimmer" and ease of production. Once this is developed, it starts to become clear how people can have the sensation of releasing the sound as apposed to pushing it. Needing to push the air or sound is a result of an inefficient setup.

Developing this way of playing allows for a much less taxing and far more enjoyable approach to the instrument. If you want a darker sound, just play equipment that lends itself to the sound you desire.

I have found that I'm able to play MUCH larger equipment now than ever before by developing a much more efficient approach to the instrument.

Happy Trumpeting!

Dave
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tyler.slamkowski
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bright/brilliant is what trumpet is supposed to sound like. Golden, like Maurice Andre. The dark sound is a myth.
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tyler.slamkowski wrote:
Bright/brilliant is what trumpet is supposed to sound like. Golden, like Maurice Andre. The dark sound is a myth.

This is by no means true. There are pieces that require a darker trumpet sound. Something like Mahler 5 would not sound good if played too bright.
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