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trumpet56
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Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Posts: 623
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 Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Mouthpiece buzzing is not just about sound although it picks up lack of efficiency in turning the air into lip vibration (buzz). For me it more about pitching notes without the aid of the instrument and being able to center those pitches. |
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| mm55 wrote: | | John Mohan wrote: |
It's interesting how fired up and upset some people get (not you), simply because I don't agree with their opinion(s). It's too bad for them they get so upset. I don't. I wish them well. |
It's interesting how fired up and upset some people get, simply because a practice technique that they don't understand and can't do correctly is discussed. It's too bad for them they get so upset. |
If you think I'm fired up and upset, don't worry, you're wrong (again).  (The "again" is just a joke).
The only thing I'm upset about is the fact that in the on-going 3 day war between me and my Jeep's front axle shaft U-joints that need replacing, I am losing and losing big time. It's not the Jeep's fault - it spent the first seven years of its life in the Northeast, and then the most recent twelve years in Chicago - the the bolts and nuts on the underside all look like they're from a ship that sank in saltwater sometime in the early 20th Century. I just came in from the garage after losing the latest battle. My impact wrench wouldn't touch the 36mm axle nut on the passenger side (this is a nut that the factory specs call for tightening to 175 ft-lbs). I then attempted to break it loose with a 4 foot long breaker bar. Now, when I was 15 years old I set the dead-lift record in the under 120 lb. category at my High School, dead-lifting 625lbs. Yes, I was just a 115lb. weakling in High School, but I was a strong 115 lb. weakling! I think I am as strong as I was when I was 15 (one would hope). 625 lbs times the 4 foot length of the breaker bar... do the math. Rust is winning. Sprayed it (again) with PB Blaster and later this evening I'll lather, rinse, repeat.
Compared to the Jeep fiasco (which I try to view as a challenge and adventure), having a pleasant discussion about mouthpiece buzzing is easy-peasy fun time. I hope you feel the same way.
Cheers,
John
P.S. One last thing: I've been playing trumpet for 48 years, have studied with many wonderful teachers, and my IQ, tested on three occasions in my school years is in the "extremely gifted" area of the scale (upper 140's). I assure you, I am fully capable of correctly buzzing a mouthpiece and I fully understand the process involved. |
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Craig Swartz
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Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 7769
Location: Des Moines, IA area
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:56 am Post subject: |
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This thread seems to have morphed a bit from the OP, so wth?
40-some years ago after I got out of undergrad, I conned Ren Schilke into taking me on for some lessons over a couple summers. At our first session he recommended I attempt some free buzzing to strengthen the overall set of my embouchure. I couldn't do it in the lesson but by the time I'd driven across Illinois to Iowa I was doing pretty well. After demonstrating it the next lesson, we didn't do much more of it- just used it for initial set up, then on to playing and pretty much forgot about it after I could do it and move around over a 5th or more.
To this day I still do some free buzzing on the way to gigs in the car as setting up drill before I actually place mouthpiece to lips. I've also followed Pop's advice on buzzing, which places one much closer to a normal playing embouchure and sensation than what many seem to advocate, except, perhaps, Stamp, if one actually learned from him. Playing the mouthpiece or the lips rather than buzzing it/them. Big difference. FWIW- I use the full Stamp warm up every day, including the mouthpiece work and I've never felt it has impeded my playing. Besides, I'm probably too damn old to learn anything new...  To each his/her/its own. All the best!
And John- a nut that big? Get your torch and heat it up. Take it from me- I'm daily driving an 05 Park Ave with 309K on it, original motor/trans and I do the majority of maintenance myself. Breaking the front strut bolts wasn't nearly as difficult but the front axle nuts were tough. I hope you're breaking them loose with the front end on the ground, then raising it after you break it loose. Good luck with it. Might say a prayer and light a candle, too. I usually do that after I run out of pertinent profanity and have bandaged my knuckles... |
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mm55
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Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1412
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | | mm55 wrote: | | John Mohan wrote: |
It's interesting how fired up and upset some people get (not you), simply because I don't agree with their opinion(s). It's too bad for them they get so upset. I don't. I wish them well. |
It's interesting how fired up and upset some people get, simply because a practice technique that they don't understand and can't do correctly is discussed. It's too bad for them they get so upset. |
If you think I'm fired up and upset, don't worry, you're wrong (again). |
Clearly, my posts went right over your head. Whoooosh!
| John Mohan wrote: |
my IQ, tested on three occasions in my school years is in the "extremely gifted" area of the scale (upper 140's). |
Well, bless your heart!
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| mm55 wrote: | | John Mohan wrote: | | mm55 wrote: | | John Mohan wrote: |
It's interesting how fired up and upset some people get (not you), simply because I don't agree with their opinion(s). It's too bad for them they get so upset. I don't. I wish them well. |
It's interesting how fired up and upset some people get, simply because a practice technique that they don't understand and can't do correctly is discussed. It's too bad for them they get so upset. |
If you think I'm fired up and upset, don't worry, you're wrong (again). |
Clearly, my posts went right over your head. Whoooosh! |
Given that you quoted me and then wrote what you wrote, I thought you were referring to me. Was I wrong? Or are you suggesting that I should be fired up and upset but am not because I didn't understand you posts? Now despite my IQ, I'm confused... 
| mm55 wrote: | | John Mohan wrote: |
my IQ, tested on three occasions in my school years is in the "extremely gifted" area of the scale (upper 140's). |
Well, bless your heart! |
That did make me laugh out loud. Thanks for that! The IQ isn't all it's cracked up to be. It's been my experience in life that the smartest people I know (including me) tend to make the stupidest mistakes at times. |
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Velo Vol
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Location: Knoxville, TN
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Jerry Freedman
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Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 2476
Location: Burlington, Massachusetts
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| No two people have the same embouchure/facial setup. It is therefore a mistake to generalize from one's personal success or failure to the trumpet playing universe. Not everyone likes Mocha Chip and not everyone can eat peanuts. |
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TKSop
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Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | | mm55 wrote: | | John Mohan wrote: | | Imagine if you'd spent all the time you have doing these various buzzing exercises actually practicing good developmental material on your trumpet... |
Imagine if you'd spent all the time you have posting the same tired old boilerplate snarky sanctimonious put-downs about a practice technique that you obviously don't understand, actually contributing something positive! |
Seriously, in my opinion, implicitly (or explicitly) pointing out that making it a routine habit to practice buzzing a mouthpiece is not as good a way to spend one's time as practicing a trumpet if the goal is to be a better trumpet player, is contributing something positive.
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With due respect, John, you'll find plenty that would take up this exact same logic back to you with respect to practicing pedals, for example:
pointing out that making it a routine habit to practice pedals is not as good a way to spend one's time as practicing a trumpet if the goal is to be a better trumpet player, is contributing something positive.
(Granting that many players cannot play pedals without embouchure distortion, and that there is no benefit to playing with two different embouchures).
And sure, you'd disagree with my beliefs re: a lack of benefits to pedals just as much guys who are pro-buzzing would disagree with your beliefs re: a lack of benefits to buzzing.
Given that we have worldclass teachers and schools of thought that preach the exact opposites on certain practice material (buzzing being one, pedals being another) and these schools of thought have produced world class students despite that disagreement... well, it suggests that either both have a point or neither do, surely?
At the end of the day though, we all appreciate each others playing regardless of the paths we took to get there - and I wish you well, as always. |
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scottfsmith
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Joined: 27 Jun 2015
Posts: 474
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:21 am Post subject: |
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I am a relatively new trumpet player (couple of years) and got to a certain level (top of the staff) and didn't really get much further. So I took some lessons where I was instructed in free buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing. At first I half-heartedly did it as I thought it was somewhat bogus. But bit by bit I have come around to it and my overall technique is now several levels up from where it was. A particular problem I had was I was bunching my chin to get higher notes, and no amount of flexibilities or other exercises was getting me any improvement there.
The key reason it works for me is my natural buzz can get translated to the trumpet, and you can't bunch your chin in a free buzz -- try it, its impossible. The mouthpiece buzz is just a halfway point between the free buzz and the trumpet playing. Its helping me a lot to first get higher notes free buzzing, then get them mouthpiece buzzing with keeping my chin in good shape, and once I have that together taking it to the trumpet. Its shocking how easy I can play high notes now, whereas I was busting a lip to get them out before.
I expect there may be other techniques that could fix my embouchure, but free buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing did it for me.
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dstpt
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Posts: 1283
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| scottfsmith wrote: | ...you can't bunch your chin in a free buzz -- try it, its impossible....
I expect there may be other techniques that could fix my embouchure, but free buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing did it for me. |
Actually, I can free buzz into the double register, but my chin bunches when I get above the staff. I wish it didn't and occasionally I'll find myself spending a little time on trying to keep it flat (which would be ideal, according to Charlie Porter, from whom I've recently taken a few lessons on this very thing). Yes...been playing for years...fought chop issues off and on...working on the perfect embouchure...right. I'm still sorting it all out, but in the meanwhile, I'm able to work, which is the most important thing, especially to support my family.
So, to (free) buzz or not to (free) buzz?...that is the question for some. To further what Christian Lindberg is saying on the video posted earlier in this thread, the formation of the chops is not the same when free buzzing and when playing on the mouthpiece, nor when playing the horn, whether they are aware of any subtle change or not. I see those three scenarios as having distinct differences...at least, I personally experience differences/changes in the chops, albeit ever-so-slight. The way Lindberg demonstrates the difference in sound makes that part obvious, at least in tonal production.
One principal trombonist in a US major symphony orchestra said that he regards the mouthpiece to be an important component in embouchure formation and does not subscribe to free buzzing as a result. I've heard many others express the same sentiment, where they feel that the formation when playing should be more organic by avoiding excessive tension that free buzzing seems to create. On the other hand, some feel that they find a benefit in working the facial muscles by doing some free buzzing but have learned to relax somewhat once they go to the horn. Another local accomplished trombonist said that he gave up free buzzing after seeing the Christian Lindberg video. Some do not even like creating vibrations on the mouthpiece alone; they feel the horn creates back-pressure that the mouthpiece alone (and free buzzing, for sure) doesn't provide and that they want to avoid the tension they experience in free buzzing, which they find can carry over into their playing the horn. These feel that the differences in formation between these formations is too dramatic from what our target is...to get an ideal sound on the trumpet.
I liken some of this to how we may do certain physical exercises to stay in shape, like, crunches, push-ups, or weight-lifting. A person typically does these to keep the muscles tone and ready to accomplish the tasks at hand, whether that’s to ensure not pulling their back when picking up a pencil, or seriously injuring themselves when competing in next month’s ironman competition!
We as players work extremes at times: practicing faster fingering passages than what we have to perform, a fourth higher than what is demanded in a performance, or louder or softer than what we would be required to do...IOW, stretching our extremes in order to develop our overall playing technique and in hopes that some of it will eventually become easier. If you’re working with students, free buzzing may help them, at least for a time; the same would be true to us as individual players, right? If it seems to be hindering your development, then don’t do it. What is hard to discern with any developmental technique is discovering what will advance our playing in the most expedient manner and what may prove to be of detriment. So, in tribute to William Shakespeare once again: Know thy face. Or not. |
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homebilly
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Joined: 24 Dec 2010
Posts: 2197
Location: Venice, CA & Paris, France
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:53 am Post subject: |
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i hear that buzzing helps to dislodge any barnacle type debris on Jeep axle shaft u-joints but the rub is that you HAVE to be seated in the passenger seat for it to work.
ok, now back to your regularly scheduled programming.....
on today's show Mr. Ed hits a double C while giving Wilbur a Melvin
YMMV
ron and his duct tape web show ..............
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scottfsmith
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Joined: 27 Jun 2015
Posts: 474
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| dstpt wrote: | | scottfsmith wrote: | ...you can't bunch your chin in a free buzz -- try it, its impossible....
I expect there may be other techniques that could fix my embouchure, but free buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing did it for me. |
Actually, I can free buzz into the double register, but my chin bunches when I get above the staff. |
I guess that shows everyone is different, I can't bunch my chin for the life of me when free buzzing. For me its a key way to get out of that rut but it sounds like not for all players. In general I agree with your points .. free buzzing is working for me but that doesn't necessarily mean it will work for everyone.
The analogy with chin-ups etc I would say is a bit off as those exercises are mainly about gaining strength and not coordination. I think a better sports analogy would be roller skiing vs winter cross-country skiing. The motions share a lot in common, but are also quite different in some ways. But there is enough in common that as long as you don't try to literally copy and paste your style on one to the other they are mutually supporting. I think most pro xc skiers these days are on rollers in the summer. In general the notion of cross-training is a major component of modern athletic training and free (and mouthpiece) buzzing are forms of cross-training for the trumpeter. Not all serious athletes do cross-training but it is more prevalent than it used to be.
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brassmusician
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Joined: 25 Feb 2016
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:56 am Post subject: Re: buzzing....like Charlie Porter |
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| aardvark wrote: | | After watching the "Charlie Porter" post on lip set-up etc.....at the 41:01 minute mark he does some lip buzzing. I have never been a fan of buzzing, but I tried it on the mouthpiece and I really sucked at it. After quite a few attempts, I got fairly decent at it by opening up my lips just a bit. As far as buzzing "without" the mouthpiece, (with just the lips).... as Charlie demonstrated at 41:01 , I can buzz maybe one or two low tones and that's it!!!.........is there any benefit for me to work on lip buzzing?....I might add, I do have a solid high "C" and pretty good "F"...and can squeak out some double "C" 's ...don't understand how I can play a high "C" and not buzz it without the mouthpiece!!....will the lip buzzing help overall or should I just stick to mouthpiece buzzing?....or forget about it all and just play the horn!!!!!.........Thanks |
Aardvark. Mouthpiece buzzing is a practice tool that has been used and advocated by major players and teachers (eg. Herseth, McNab, Vizzutti). It can strengthen your embouchure and improve your sound and flexibility. Up to 2 minutes, not more is something I have read Vizzutti and Bobby Shew both recommend, so it is not going to be time wasted. It could be worth trying for a week or too to see if it adds anything to your playing. If it doesn't,
discard it. Buzzing with the lips alone is somewhat harder to do (for me), less common, I think. I would try the mouthpiece first. Incidentally I have found some mouthpieces have been much more difficult to buzz on, although they have played fine in the trumpet. If the rim is not allowing a nice easy buzz without the resistance of the trumpet (maybe it is wide and flat) then mouthpiece buzzing may not be as productive for you. |
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