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lmao_a_horn_player
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:25 pm    Post subject: Slotting Reply with quote

So I'm a freshman in high school and last year, my range on my same 3c and same conn 22b student horn my was around a double G and could squeak out an A. Now my range is much higher to around a double C on the same equipment but the slotting seems to not be the same. When I used to be able to slot right in on a double G or double F#, now if I try to do that it always either goes up to the Ab or I miss completely and can't produce a tone. Does anyone have any suggestions about what I might be able to do to fix it?
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The concept of "slotting" above double G is somewhat theoretical. Everything is so close together at double G and above that a lot of what's happening there has more to do with hearing the note and adjusting accordingly than landing in some definitive "slot." Certainly, these notes don't "slot" like the notes an octave below. So, what may be happening to you now is that you're over compensating to play the note at the correct pitch and you're habitually overshooting it. The more you can relax in the extreme high register the better things will be.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you had a double G in the eighth grade? And now you are up to double C?
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lmao_a_horn_player
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a theory as to what it was. It was not that I was overcompensating to play the notes in tune or anything like that, but when I was in middle school, our band constantly played flat so my tuning slide would be way far out to compensate for normally playing sharp. I pulled my tuning slide out to where it would be last year and played up to the g and slotted perfectly but also was not able to get the Ab "slotted" how I'm now used to it so I guess you just can't have everything.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lmao_a_horn_player wrote:
I have a theory as to what it was. It was not that I was overcompensating to play the notes in tune or anything like that, but when I was in middle school, our band constantly played flat so my tuning slide would be way far out to compensate for normally playing sharp. I pulled my tuning slide out to where it would be last year and played up to the g and slotted perfectly but also was not able to get the Ab "slotted" how I'm now used to it so I guess you just can't have everything.


Are you talking about the G on the first space above the staff and the C two ledger lines above the staff or are you talking about a full octave above those notes? My impression was that in your original post you were talking about a full octave above those notes. Based on your description in the above post you reason that your problem relates to your playing in your middle school band. Middle school bands don't typically play anything that requires a note above C two ledger lines above the staff. So if you're talking about notes between the G on the space directly above the staff and the C two ledger lines above the staff then my earlier post doesn't apply. Those notes all have definite slots.
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lmao_a_horn_player
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I was talking about a full octave above those. The only time I would use them is in the jazz band but the highest written was always a D or an E but there were a couple of times per gig where I would play a bit higher than that.
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George Coble
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have a “problem” that many would wish for.

What has happened is that your embouchure/air control/efficiency has jumped to the next level. Range is usually a coefficient of increased efficiency. Slotting is a coefficient of your equipment’s limitations of moving smoothly from note to note.

At a clinic at the Mt Vernon factory in the early 1960s Vincent Bach told the group I was with ‘the 3C was the “Black Man’s” screech mouthpiece.’ I ended up using a 1 1/2C Bach mouthpiece for 40 years of orchestral playing. However, if I had been a freelancer I would have switched to a 3C and this mouthpiece is just about perfect for all-around playing. The 3C is not a mouthpiece for slotting and neither is the Conn 22B trumpet. The strength of your “yesterday’s” embouchure enabled the slotting you were commenting on.

In order to regain the slotting you once had before this “improvement” in your technical ability you will need to consciously work less arduous, “focus” on pitch centers, and “allow” the music rather than forcing it.

What you are experiencing is a “growth spurt”. For all this is worth, enjoy it. You are truly a lucky person.

Good luck.

George Coble
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lmao_a_horn_player
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I spent the day today switching up my fingerings to see if the "slotting" would get any better and I found that when I use 1 2 and 3, the F# speaks really well and 1 and 3 allows the G to speak well. I already figured out that 1 and 2 or 1 doesn't work for the A but just 3 works really well. I just wanted to post this info here for anyone with my problem who hadn't thought of these.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lmao_a_horn_player wrote:
I spent the day today switching up my fingerings to see if the "slotting" would get any better and I found that when I use 1 2 and 3, the F# speaks really well and 1 and 3 allows the G to speak well. I already figured out that 1 and 2 or 1 doesn't work for the A but just 3 works really well. I just wanted to post this info here for anyone with my problem who hadn't thought of these.


What you'll find is that as you get into the very high register (above double G) there and many valve combinations available which can be used to play a certain note. That's because these notes really don't "slot" the way lower notes do. To me, the highest note that really can be said to "slot" is the double G. Everything above that is more hearing the note and adjusting as need be with embouchure, air and valve combination to produce the accurate pitch.

The above being said, I've known many players who could play in the high register at a young age who never developed any other skills. They never became truly powerful high note players (Wayne Bergeron, Maynard, etc.) but they could get the high notes out to at least some extent. They would have been better off devoting their time to developing the fundamentals necessary for proficiency to play trumpet in normal ranges.
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lmao_a_horn_player
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm already spending about as much time as I can handle between homework and chores on Clarke / Arban's. I have no social life because of it, but hey whatever. The only friends I have are heavily into an instrument as well so that makes it easy to find something to do when we do have time to hang out. But one thing is, besides Clarke, Arban's, issues within the actual charts we are playing in school, what else should I be working on, I can't exactly afford to get a private teacher. I live with an adopted family who doesn't like to spend money too often and all my books are online and not completely legal to own (shhhh don't tell anyone)
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some info in this play list might help.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjtQbOLXI0BB_2bn5GjxlWCYsEM8DDVTH

Best, Jon
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bnsd
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"squeaking" a double A in middle school, and having it pitch up on occasion is a problem many wish they had. Some people just "get it" and a lot of other people are looking for it.

I've been playing for 45 years, and still rarely nail an A.

I agree with some things others have said: pitching it up is based on your ability to play higher, and your increased efficiency delivers more than you bargained for ; you'll grow into that.

I like that you said you focus on Clarke and Arban's- don't just be a screamer. There are plenty of you tube heroes that can't do much else than blow high.

post some video!
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oddly enough I see this same lack of perspective we see from the O/P as on some 40 year comeback players Ive known..

A middle school or even high school boy has no use for an A above high C unless he's playing fat and musically up to high C/D already. I would bet money that if we listened to this fellow (stating his case in the first topic post) that there are significant weaknesses in his general playing.

I'm not trying to put the kid down here at all. In fact I'm excited for the fact that he appears to have some natural ability in the extreme upper registee. Because this factor can be an enormous asset later on down the road. However unless he gets a solid middle register that connects well into that extreme range? Then he probably has no rational reason to even practice those notes much. Except as kind of a curiousity just for fun..

I do have an extreme register too but it didnt come from having any natural predisposition to blow high notes at all. Granted natural gifts are great but practice and perseverance are our natural equalizers.

The guy I worked with tonight in the trumpet section of a strong rehearsal band is kind of a "problem child" for me. The director and I want to build him into a good lead player. So Im playing other parts half the time. Letting him learn lead in an "on the job training". Only on the most demanding charts am I on lead. And he does play some impressive double C's. But he almost totally lacks the sizzle between the tuning note and high G. All despite him actually having one or two notes above double C which I really dont have as bandstand ready. While I do own everything up to high G and can even blow a fair amount of high A's etc. I just really cant nail the D above double C except in practice. Which doesnt count.

However my friend's endurance tends to burn out quickly. Worse still he overplays his lead. Showboating by playing higher notes than written way too much. Meanwhile running low on the stamina to just "play the ink". While he's improved a good deal the past couple months he's still kind of a "five minute hero".

We all go through this phase of immaturity and there's really only two ways of getting through it.

A. Always just " Play The Ink". That and,

B. Build solid endurance, tone and power. So you always have something left. Even at the end of a gig. And this part "B" takes time and perseverance.

Personal to the O/P. W
ork on your sound. Leave the notes above high G alone until you can hammer down the whole lead chart just like John Henry driving his hammer. I always liked that analogy. Concentrate on your musicality and after you attain that discipline?

Then work on your natural gifts. Then and only then will you discover their value.

I dont want to discourage anyone from playing higher tones. Not even our ridiculously high notes like triple C etc. I just dont want to see the kid trapped on a set of unproductive playing habits. A double C is only helpful when everything underneath it is solid as a rock. And the C itself is well in tune.

And this is why good lead players are kinda rare. Its also why we see some cats playing lead who may not have the best high notes in the section.

The outstanding trumpet Stan Mark held down the enviable lead chair on Maynard's band for almost ten years. The longest anyone ever held it. Yet according to Stan's own words, at no time during his decade on the greatest trumpet band in the world was he the strongest high note player on the band.

From Stan's own mouth came his admission that the other cats Ron Tooley, Guiseppe Mosello, Dennis Noday and others all had better high notes than he. But Maynard wanted Stan on lead. And for good reason. He was the trumpet Maynard liked due to his musical cleanliess and lead style.
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might have what some including myself call a break in your range. This is the spot where we do not have the same focus as notes below or above this area. It usually occurs somewhere above high C/D There lissome information in this video 7:40 min in that might help.


Link


Best, Jon
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rufflicks wrote:
You might have what some including myself call a break in your range. This is the spot where we do not have the same focus as notes below or above this area. It usually occurs somewhere above high C/D There lissome information in this video 7:40 min in that might help.


Link


Best, Jon



This was really helpful - thanks a lot. Exactly the kind of break I have;
playing the soprano cornet way back I remember that I, at some point, made some kind of switch/change/move with my chops, in order to play that much higher, softly. Never really undestood what I did so a forgotten art - you may have made me re-discover it. Back to the drawing board!
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rufflicks wrote:
You might have what some including myself call a break in your range. This is the spot where we do not have the same focus as notes below or above this area. It usually occurs somewhere above high C/D There lissome information in this video 7:40 min in that might help.


Link


Best, Jon


This is a very valid point. Shifting/changing the embouchure at a certain point in the range is a common problem and the player might not even realize it's happening. When Wayne Bergeron was here with Willie Murillo and Wayne had some hurting chops he asked Willie and me to watch him transition to the high range to see if we observed if he was doing any shifting to compensate. So this topic is a concern even to someone as far up the talent/ability chain as Wayne.

The shifting thing is sometimes called a WIG embouchure. There are discussions of it in the forum here. You ideally want to utilize one consistent embouchure over the whole range of the instrument.
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Iplaythetrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rufflicks wrote:
You might have what some including myself call a break in your range. This is the spot where we do not have the same focus as notes below or above this area. It usually occurs somewhere above high C/D There lissome information in this video 7:40 min in that might help.


Link


Best, Jon


The irony that I was about to post saying that exact thing, having watched your extremely helpful video about 30 mins Tues prior. I guess the world really is a small place... at least the trumpet world
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
The shifting thing is sometimes called a WIG embouchure. There are discussions of it in the forum here. You ideally want to utilize one consistent embouchure over the whole range of the instrument.

There are many great players who shift to varying degrees as they transition the registers. I've never heard of these shifts referred to as "wigs". When I've heard the term "wig" used it's almost always used to describe an embouchure that facilitates playing really high notes but is virtually useless in the lower registers.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
The shifting thing is sometimes called a WIG embouchure. There are discussions of it in the forum here. You ideally want to utilize one consistent embouchure over the whole range of the instrument.

There are many great players who shift to varying degrees as they transition the registers. I've never heard of these shifts referred to as "wigs". When I've heard the term "wig" used it's almost always used to describe an embouchure that facilitates playing really high notes but is virtually useless in the lower registers.


My understanding of the WIG embouchure matches yours, that is, it describes an extreme shift for the high register which is virtually useless in the lower registers. That being said, shifting the embouchure happens in degrees and at a certain point in the range complicates things at the transition (shift) point both going up and going down. A player is at an advantage if the player can utilize one consistent embouchure over the whole range of the instrument.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
cheiden wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
The shifting thing is sometimes called a WIG embouchure. There are discussions of it in the forum here. You ideally want to utilize one consistent embouchure over the whole range of the instrument.

There are many great players who shift to varying degrees as they transition the registers. I've never heard of these shifts referred to as "wigs". When I've heard the term "wig" used it's almost always used to describe an embouchure that facilitates playing really high notes but is virtually useless in the lower registers.


My understanding of the WIG embouchure matches yours, that is, it describes an extreme shift for the high register which is virtually useless in the lower registers. That being said, shifting the embouchure happens in degrees and at a certain point in the range complicates things at the transition (shift) point both going up and going down. A player is at an advantage if he can utilize one consistent embouchure over the whole range of the instrument.



Wigged chop settings are among the most mysterious and amazing conditions associated with embouchure.

The most useful ones are those which involve only a minor movement in the chops. Something attained without even pulling the mouthpiece off the chops. In fact if you can make such an adjustment without pulling the instrument off your lips? That and get much more range? It probably isnt a wigged setting at all. Just a helpful variation to your main embouchure.

Some of the truly wigged settings I'm aware of involved these two drastic changes.

1. A reverse pivot. Usually around the high G. The trumpet player with decent range and an otherwise downward motion to his horn angle while ascending suddenly reverses the angular motion when well above high C. At once the notes from Double to possibly Triple C come alive. Big as a house. An enviable condition. The more useful ones only use a small reverse pivot. Perhaps the late John Donnelly from Scotland was one of these.

I did know a kid in high school who used a reverse pivot above high G. But his angular motion was excessive. The higher he played his hirn started pointing up like Dizzy's but without the bent horn. And the kid's poor accuracy made his system useless. Today I think I could have fixed him. By insisting he not pivot so excessively. But he's nowhere to be found. Plus he was always such a conceited kid.

That and,

2. Takes horn off his chops, rolls out his lower lip, sets the lower portion of mouthpiece on the inner gum of the lower lip. Steve Reid did this on his Youtube videos. He clearly and accurately pops notes above Triple C. With good accuracy. Although I'm told that the lowest note he has on his wig setting is a freaking high F.

Though little is known about the late Jim Kartchner I have it on good authority that he had one of the most powerful upper registers ever. But that from his boss Stan Kenton's opinion he couldnt play a musical note below a high C.

My source on this fascinating story continued to tell me that eventually Jim put it all together and became the complete trumpet player. What amazes me about this story however is both what a monster player Kartchner was. That and that Kenton would actually hire someone with such a serious fundamental playing weakness.

Apparently there was a place for someone with great wigged chops. Playing all the double C's yet largely unable to contribute anything much below the staff.
Granted Ive heard of this condition in developing players but not ones who actually playef with name bands.

I must admit that even though I'm kind of a stickler for fundamentals. Yet at the same time I still keep looking for trick embouchures. This does not cause me problems because I always keep my main embouchure well grooved.

Also most of my attempts to wig my chops have been less than fantastic. I did learn to blow triple C's. And did it two different ways. Yet on one I had major control problems and as soon as my lips got wet my system fell apart. And the third trick I tried had similar limitations.
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