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GuidoCorona
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your mini-review DSTPT... Yours is the first user impressions that I read of the Adams F4... I am hoping to acquire a 4-valver sometimes in 2018, and the Adams F4 is currently at the top of my list.

How is the intonation in the lower range, with the 4th valve pressed?
F4 comes with two lead pipes... I believe 0.402 and 0.413, isn't it? Which one do you use most, and what is the tembral difference between the two?

F4 having a stepped bore... 0.413 on valves 1 through 3, and 0.450 on valve 4, how does the partial larger bore affects its tone, compared to an F2?
if I sprung for F4, I am thinking of perhaps opting for the gold brass bell with nickel-silver flair, or possibly the Sterling silver bell, in order of enhancing response, and a more brilliance in dynamic passages... I do love the dark tone of my Kanstul 1525, but if I acquire a second flugel, I'd like to go for a complementary tone palette... My fear of course, besides cost, is that a Sterling silver bell might be too much of a good thing... Perhaps yielding much more brilliance than I bargain for.


BTW, any chance of you recording a video clip of your F4?


Saluti, Guido
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jojocat
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
The finest flugelhorn I have played is the Flip Oakes Wild Thing. There is, in my opinion, no flugelhorn that matches its sound, even timbre, intonation responsiveness and build quality.


Did you ever tried a Van laar Oiram? They're to die for.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GuidoCorona wrote:
Thank you for your mini-review DSTPT... Yours is the first user impressions that I read of the Adams F4... I am hoping to acquire a 4-valver sometimes in 2018, and the Adams F4 is currently at the top of my list.

How is the intonation in the lower range, with the 4th valve pressed?
F4 comes with two lead pipes... I believe 0.402 and 0.413, isn't it? Which one do you use most, and what is the tembral difference between the two?

F4 having a stepped bore... 0.413 on valves 1 through 3, and 0.450 on valve 4, how does the partial larger bore affects its tone, compared to an F2?
if I sprung for F4, I am thinking of perhaps opting for the gold brass bell with nickel-silver flair, or possibly the Sterling silver bell, in order of enhancing response, and a more brilliance in dynamic passages... I do love the dark tone of my Kanstul 1525, but if I acquire a second flugel, I'd like to go for a complementary tone palette... My fear of course, besides cost, is that a Sterling silver bell might be too much of a good thing... Perhaps yielding much more brilliance than I bargain for.


BTW, any chance of you recording a video clip of your F4?


Saluti, Guido


Give me a few days to get back to you on this, Guido. In the middle of finishing up this show run...plus family time, et al.
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Dan O'Donnell
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Play test a Kanstul 925 with a copper bell. Great tone quality, play-ability and intonation!😀
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GuidoCorona
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you DSTPT, no problem at all... Looking forward to reading from you!

Hi Dan O'Donnell, I admit that I absolutely love my 1525, and am unlikely to ever let it go, no matter what second flugel I ever complement it with... Not only its intonation is wonderful, but with most of the mouthpieces I have -- Such as the Curry series, Stork series, Griego CS FL, Kanstul FB, and even the uberdark F.O. Extreme, 1525's tembre is textured with exposed overtones.

Guido
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Archie Sawyer
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jojocat wrote:
shofarguy wrote:
The finest flugelhorn I have played is the Flip Oakes Wild Thing. There is, in my opinion, no flugelhorn that matches its sound, even timbre, intonation responsiveness and build quality.


Did you ever tried a Van laar Oiram? They're to die for.


+1 The Oiram Flugelhorn is amazing! The one Horn that I have bought over the years (and I have owned a lot), that I would never part with. I love it that much!

Archie
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
99% of how you sound on a flugelhorn is you. The easiest and cheapest way to change your sound, other than changing you, is to change to a different mouthpiece. There isn't anything wrong with the flugelhorn you have. Your time is better invested into deciding what you want your sound to be and improving your skill to produce that sound.

I assure you that Clark Terry would have sounded like Clark Terry on your existing horn. It's not the horn, it's the player.

At this point we don’t know if anything is wrong with his flugelhorn. I think we can all agree 631 is normally a good instrument.


Good point. I just assumed that the OP's flugelhorn is in proper working condition. If it's not he should let us know the issue. It would also be helpful to know what he wants in terms of sound/playability that's different from what he has.

I have two flugelhorns: A Kanstul 1525 and an Adams F2 that Adams custom made for me. The Kanstul has a copper bell. The Adams has a red brass bell with a nickel silver flair.

The Kanstul is a great horn which produces a beautiful sound. The Adams is also a great horn and it also produces a beautiful sound but with a little more edge than the Kanstul.

The thing that, for me, really distinguishes the Adams is that it has short throw valves. They are wonderful and make the horn especially nimble. I have an Adams A8 trumpet, too, also with short throw valves. Short throw valves are addictive.

The Adams F2 is a heavyweight version of their F1. I opted for the F2 primarily because I'm used to playing a heavyweight horn. That being said, in play testing I found the F1 to be a wonderful horn which was, to me, surprisingly lightweight. I don't think I've ever held a flugelhorn as lightweight as the F1 I tested.

It's hard to beat an Adams flugelhorn. There are so many combinations of metals, metal thickness, features, etc. that you can create a flugelhorn to match whatever your preferences may be. Adams will also custom modify the horn to your own non-standard specifications as long as the final design meets their standards for performance. Miel Adams is a true gentleman who is personally involved in the making of a custom horn. He stayed in close contact with me and even sent photos during various stages of production. It was a 100% great experience.
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GuidoCorona
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Hermokiwi,

what other bell materials did you test on Adams flugels?
What did you prefer on the red brass bell with silver-nickel flair?
What bell thickness did you decide on, and why?


Thanks, Guido
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GuidoCorona wrote:
Hi Hermokiwi,

what other bell materials did you test on Adams flugels?
What did you prefer on the red brass bell with silver-nickel flair?
What bell thickness did you decide on, and why?


Thanks, Guido


Hi Guido,

My horn was ordered through J. Landress Brass in New York City. When I was there to test horns they were sold out of the F2 model so all my testing was done on the F1 model.

I tested both gold brass and red brass/nickel silver flair. I liked the sound on my Kanstul 1525 with a copper bell and wanted to be close to that sound. Adams didn't offer a copper bell at that time so since red brass produces a sound closer to copper than does gold brass it was my preference.

The nickel silver flair was a surprise. I didn't know what to expect. I'd never before played a flugelhorn with a nickel silver flair. It produced a less diffused sound than the Kanstul 1525, adding clarity to the sound, which I liked a lot, so I opted for the nickel silver flair.

Now there are even more choices. Adams now has a flugelhorn model with a copper bell so copper should now be a custom option on their other models. I wouldn't be surprised if Adams would now make a flugelhorn with a sterling silver bell since many models of their brass instruments are now available with a sterling silver bell.

My horn has the .55 bell thickness. That was not a decision based on anything other than the fact that Adams recommends a .55 bell thickness on the F2.

My F2 has custom braces Adams specially designed to match the braces on my model A8 trumpet and both horns are gold plated. Both horns are awesome and the short throw valves are wonderful.

Working with Kevin and Josh at J. Landress Brass and having the personal attention of Miel Adams throughout the production (many personal emails accompanied by photos) was a great experience.
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GuidoCorona
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Hermokiwi, from your description, your F2 must look gorgeous... And I suspect it sounds fantastic!

Any chance of you recording a video clip of it?

Yes, you are right, Adams now offers optional full Sterling silver bells on flugels... If indeed Sterling silver might create a dark sound at low volume while gradually increasing brilliance at progressively higher dynamic levels, the idea would be intriguing... My concern is of flugels with Sterling Silver bells possibly losing their fluggelly character, and so verging into uber-brilliance or trumpet-like lead territory... Are my concerns valid or excessive? Opinions anyone?


Regards, Guido
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Last edited by GuidoCorona on Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dan O'Donnell
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guido,

I am glad you are enjoying your 1525.

They are great horns and I know several pros that play them including Dan Oxley however; I play tested several of them several times trying to like them and I found that for ME, MY playing and MY mouthpiece I got too much of a Trombone sound.

It might be due to the larger bell throat / diameter on the 1525 than the 925?

I used to play on a Besson Brevete Flugelhorn (.415 Bore made by Kanstul) before I purchased my 925 w/ Copper Bell.

It is important to note that the 925 is an identical copy of the Besson Brevete except the 925 has the push button spit valves and the Besson Brevetes have the lever trigger spit valves.

The Copper bell makes a huge difference in how the horn responds (faster), slots easier and has a different tone quality than the brass bells.
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, You can order Kanstul's (probably any of them) with conventional water keys instead of Amado's.

I had my 1525 built that way.
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GuidoCorona
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dan O'Donnell, it is quite possible that with some mouthpieces, the 1525 might yield a trombone-like stentorean tone.... On the other hand, I do admit that 1525 might sound more lyrically intense than some other more intimate-sounding flugels... At least for my limited youtube-bound listening experience of the flugelian world.

What mouthpieces have you tested on 1525?

My current favorites are the Curry Fld, FL, and FLM, GR66FL, the Griego CS-FL, and one no one ever mentions... The fabulous Kanstul FB which is included in the standard 1525 shipgroup... A truly marvellous piece which brings 1525 close to the tone of a French horn.

Saluti, Guido
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Dan O'Donnell
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried Bach 3C, Kanstul 3C, Kanstul "Woody" 3C (w/ 119 Backbore) and Monette 3C (Copy) mouthpieces.
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Dan O'Donnell
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the 1525 and 925...

It is important to note that a horn with a larger bell diameter (1525) provides less feedback to the player than a smaller bell (925) which means some of the higher overtones MIGHT be blocked from the player's hearing therefore it MIGHT be the reason I heard a more "Tromboneish" lower overtone sounds with less higher overtones in the core of the sound on the 1525 and the 925.

Having stated the above; it is still important to remember that the speed of bell taper (throat size) of the bell has an impact on more or less higher overtones.

For example; the famous Martin Handcraft Committee Bb Trumpet has a large bell throat which helps to give it (should I say) a "darker" tone.

Chris Botti told me that it is so much of a bigger bell throat than a standard trumpet that he has to double cork wrap his mutes.

When KO used to work for Bob Reeves; he let me conduct a blind play test with several horns that were the same (as identical as possible) with different bell throat sizes.

After my blind play test...I was a believer!

Both the 1525 and 925 are great horns it is just that the 925 had the sound that I enjoy most from a Flugelhorn.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whispering: Anybody notice the OP never responded after the initial post? Helllooooo. Still with us?
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
Whispering: Anybody notice the OP never responded after the initial post? Helllooooo. Still with us?


I noticed.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GuidoCorona wrote:
Thank you for your mini-review DSTPT... Yours is the first user impressions that I read of the Adams F4... I am hoping to acquire a 4-valver sometimes in 2018, and the Adams F4 is currently at the top of my list.


So far I think it is a great flugelhorn. Love the short stoke valves and overall intonation. I have continued having trouble with valves sticking, so I've got to investigate that further. On Thursday I sent an email, and left a vm msg, for the ACB (Austin Custom Brass) repair person, but I haven't heard back from him. I did hear back from an ACB associate, who said that the repair person had just gotten back from vacation on Thursday and was probably still catching up. If I can't remedy it myself and/or get info to fix it, then I'll post back here about it within a few days.

GuidoCorona wrote:
How is the intonation in the lower range, with the 4th valve pressed?


It is good, but I posted a response on a TH thread entitled "Fingering Chart for a 4 Valve Flugelhorn?" [Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:19 pm]. I dealt with equal temperament and how the low register needs adjusting as we descend. I know many will get into the "just" v. "equal" temperament, but I play a lot with keyboard, so my focus is on the later. In brass quintet and orchestral settings, things can definitely be different. I would want to put a trigger on the 4th slide of any 4v trumpet-related instrument, and I'm working in the direction to have that on all of my 4v horns...eventually. So far, though, the Adams F4 is just as manageable as the Getzen in that respect.

GuidoCorona wrote:
F4 comes with two lead pipes... I believe 0.402 and 0.413, isn't it? Which one do you use most, and what is the tembral difference between the two?


I toyed around with both of those when I got the horn a couple of weeks ago, and decided on one, but they aren't marked (or at least, I haven't found a demarkation), so I've got to inquire about that as well when ACB contacts me. I couldn't find a whole lot of difference between the two as far as the blow goes. Now that the show is over, I'll have a little more time to experiment.

GuidoCorona wrote:
F4 having a stepped bore... 0.413 on valves 1 through 3, and 0.450 on valve 4, how does the partial larger bore affects its tone, compared to an F2?


I did spend a little time on this today (now yesterday) while warming up and really couldn't hear a lot of difference going from, say, 1-3 D to 4 D, or 1-2-3 C# or low F# and the 2-4 combination. I believe the step bore is there, but neither did the blow nor the tone seem different between those fingering options. It may be more pronounced with certain dynamics or mouthpiece selection. I'm using my Denis Wick 2FL, which I've used for years. I don't know that it's ideal for this horn, yet, so all of this may be noticeably different with a different mouthpiece.

GuidoCorona wrote:
if I sprung for F4, I am thinking of perhaps opting for the gold brass bell with nickel-silver flair, or possibly the Sterling silver bell, in order of enhancing response, and a more brilliance in dynamic passages... I do love the dark tone of my Kanstul 1525, but if I acquire a second flugel, I'd like to go for a complementary tone palette... My fear of course, besides cost, is that a Sterling silver bell might be too much of a good thing... Perhaps yielding much more brilliance than I bargain for.


As I mention in my previous post, I got the Red Brass and Nickel Silver bell. Trent Austin has done a number of videos on these horns on ACB. On one of them, he does say that ultimately any of these horns are great, and in comparing them, it is difficult to tell a difference, at least from my listening source on my Mac.

GuidoCorona wrote:
BTW, any chance of you recording a video clip of your F4?

Saluti, Guido


Yes, but I may send it to you in a PM. It would most likely be a few days from now.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jojocat wrote:
shofarguy wrote:
The finest flugelhorn I have played is the Flip Oakes Wild Thing. There is, in my opinion, no flugelhorn that matches its sound, even timbre, intonation responsiveness and build quality.


Did you ever tried a Van laar Oiram? They're to die for.


I'm sure the Van Laar horns are wonderful, but I have not played one. The recordings I've heard from various artists sound very good.

Some of the points about the Wild Thing that are unique, even compared to the Van Laar:

Bottom sprung valves - These are extremely light and fast with a short throw.

Open wrap - Particularly the bell branch, which because of the valves has a measurably wider radius than top-sprung valves. This means the WT doesn't develop a trumpet-like edge as the notes go above the staff. Even the Kanstul 1025, which has a double radius bell bend and tighter radius branch bend, gets brighter and more resistant above the staff. Some people want the edge to come into the horn in the higher range, but for those who want even timbre and response across the horn's entire range the WT is the choice, IMO.

Left hand ergonomics - Those valves reduce the room for fingers to grip the casings above the valve tubing. So, a different grip is required and a different 3rd valve trigger placement was adopted. After the addition of a 3rd valve finger ring for the middle finger, and with the reversed lever bend (compared to Kanstul's stock), the horn has what I think is the most secure and intuitive grip of any flugelhorn. One pulls the trigger with the index finger, so it never compromises one's hold on the horn. This might sound incidental, but after a long day, it makes a pretty big difference.
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GuidoCorona
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you so much DSTPT for your detailed response... I am very much looking forward to hearing from you via PM and receiving the audio or video clip of your F4!

Saluti, Guido
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