Why do valves stick with too thin valve oil?

[Louise Finch]

Hi Guys

A bit of an update. After the sticking at my Jazz band on Friday, which got progressively worse as the night went on until the 1st valve was sticking almost everytime on the upstroke, I wiped down the valves and valve casings, and re-oiled with Hetman 2 this two as opposed to Yamaha Synthetic Light, which I find to be very similar to Hetman 1.

I've checked that the holes in the bottom of the valves are clear, and they were.

I have a feeling that the thicker oil is going to be worse, as now it is oiled with Hetman 2, if I hold down the valve straight for a short while without playing, it sticks on the upstroke, whereas with Yamaha Synthetic Light the sticking doesn't start until a while after starting playing.

I've tried swapping over the 1st valve stem with the one from the 3rd valve, which I've never known to stick, and the 1st valve sticks just the same.

My conclusions so far are:

1. This trumpet is not dirty. It has been cleaned many times throughout with a H W Brass Saver, which I've had through all the slides, valve ports and tubes between the valves, and Will Spencer gave it an ultra-sonic clean/Acid bath, whatever he uses, after lapping the valves anyhow. In fact after all these cleanings and two lappings, the valves look new. The vents in the bottom of the pistons are all clear of dirt and debris.

2. This trumpet has had new valve guides and new springs, and rubber top felts. It had new internal valve felts when Will Spencer did a PVA on it.

3. Thicker oil seems to make it worse.

4. Not to my knowledge has this trumpet been knocked or dropped. It is in my sight at all times whilst on a trumpet stand, and I keep it in a well fitting hard trumpet case.

5. It sticked when Will Spencer played it, so it doesn't just happen with me.

6. There are no visible signs of damage to either the piston or valve casing. The piston has no flat spots, the valve casing looks completely round, and the edges of the valve ports seem sufficiently smooth.

All I have left to try is washing the valves and valve casings again with dish soap, and soaking them in white vinegar. I'll buy some white vinegar and give this a try.

If this doesn't work, it will be a case of finding the least problematic oil and hoping that it will bed in on its own.

Thanks very much Guys.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[shofarguy]

Lou,

You wrote that your tech lapped your valves twice. This is a bad sign, in my opinion. I can't think of one good reason to lap the valves of an older horn that isn't right out of the factory, where it might have been under lapped as the horn was assembled. What is probably going on is that your valves are too loose now. The clearances between the pistons and casings are too great. That results in the piston rocking side-to-side in the casing. This scrapes off the oil film that is there to lubricate the piston, leaving the casing wall dry and the piston sticks. Lapping exacerbates this looseness and makes the problem worse. This is what happened to my Benge. It needed the valves re-plated and refitted. Once the clearances were properly close, the valves worked wonderfully, as they should.

Zig showed me how to tell if the valves are worn. He took hold of the stem (not the finger button) of each valve and tried to move it from side-to-side, fore and aft and left to right. If any movement could be felt or seen, the valve needed to be rebuilt. Look at the distance between the valve stem and the hole in the top cap to see if the valve moves sideways, as you do this.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[Bob Stevenson]

Hi Lou,

"the trumpet has had new valve guides...." Are these plastic components? How do they interact with the vavle?.....which part is slotted/grooved?...what slides in the groove?

[HERMOKIWI]

Maybe there's a problem with the valve guides. I had that problem with a horn once. Try switching them around and see if that has any effect.

Assuming there's no venting problem creating the issue then the issue is clearly that friction develops between moving and relative stationary parts which becomes severe enough under some circumstances to hang up the valve on the upstroke. Obviously, this is an exasperating problem especially when oiling the valves is a cure for a short period of time.

I did once have a situation in which the valve casing was slightly out of alignment even though the horn had never been dropped or otherwise had suffered anything which could have been reasonably predicted to cause the alignment issue. The symptom was a sticky valve on the upstroke. I don't know how the tech determined or fixed this but he was able to do so and the cure did not involve lapping, re-plating or otherwise rebuilding the valve or replacing any component part of the valve.
_________________
HERMOKIWI

[Bflatman]

valves and valve oil is complex. This is what is going on.

Valves are not tight in the bores, there is looseness there always will be. Oil is not all the same, some is thick some is thin and different oils have different ability to cling to surfaces. Surfaces are not smooth and as they wear they can either wear smoother or rougher.

Furthermore valves are held vertically in most instruments and this allows oil to run down under gravity.

Furthermore residues and dirt can mix into the oil and then set on the valve surface and chamber surface if the oil doesnt flush them away leaving rough patches that prevents oil from adhering.

Furthermore some thin oils evaporate quickly leaving little or no lubrication behind and accelerating dirt residue buildup.

Furthermore mixing oils can lead to incompatibilities resulting in poor lubrication sticking valves and dirt buildup.

Now that lot is out of the way, consider this. Stickng valves are almost exclusively the result of dirt buildup.

This is what I think has happened. You used oil normally and were happy, the oil stayed on the valves and dirt did not build up. Consequently the valves did not stick. You then used too thin an oil, the oil did not cling to the valves because it was too thin, and ran down between valve and chamber wall, the remaining oil evaporated because it was more volatile than your normal oil.

Dirt in the oil then instead of being flushed away was left on the valve and chamber to build up and thicken. Once this process begins it accelerates and you now find no oil is working properly.

Only one thing can fix this. clean the valves and chamber absolutely clean of all deposits and residues. Until this is done you will be plagued by sticking valves. A tech can advise how to do this. Once your valves and chambers are totally clean oil a lot for a couple of days and this will bathe the valves then oil normally.

[Louise Finch]

Hi

Just quick relies for now. I'll do my best to reply properly later or tomorrow.
My valves were lapped twice without my authority. I don't have a regular tech. Will Spencer lapped my valves once, and a second company, despite me telling them over the phone, via email and in a note in the box with my trumpet, detailing what I would like done, that not under any circumstances were the valves to be lapped further without good reason and a discussion with me first, they gave the valves a good lap.

The sticking started before I replaced the valve guides. They are original Bach metal ones from a similar era to that of my trumpet, kindly sent to me by yourbrass on this forum. They are the same style as modern Bach valve guides, and of the kind commonly seen with internal valve springs, e.g. with two tabs, one slightly larger than the other.

Rather than re-oiling solving the issue for a while, re-oiling actually immediately makes the issue worse. I'm putting this in bold, as I feel that it may be very relevant.

The sticking didn't start after switching to a thinner oil. It came on gradually with my existing oil. I very much doubt that there is any dirt on the surface of the valves, since they have been lapped twice, and look like new, but I'm going to try cleaning them in white vinegar to be absolutely sure.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Croquethed]

...and if the white vinegar doesn't do the trick, you could also try rubbing alcohol, Lou.

[Bflatman]

16 Causes of valve sticking are

Dirt on valve
Dirt on chamber
Twisted spring
Damaged guide
Bent valve
Bent valve block
Bent stem
Bad oil
Damaged top cap
Damaged casing
Weak spring
Obstruction
Wrongly fitted parts
Wrongly interchanged parts
Misaligned parts
Cross threaded parts

it sounds like you need a tech to look at it

[cheiden]

My favorite sticking valve was due to some grime in the short tubes that connect the cylinders. They can be very difficult to clean and are often overlooked. I also had a tiny burr on a piston port that vexed me for a while.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

Hi

I've just cleaned my trumpet again. Hmmm. I've spent more time cleaning this trumpet than playing it over the last couple of years. This time I paid particular attention to cleaning the valve casings, and the bottom portion in particular. They look clean and feel completely smooth.

I've decided to go back to Holton, as although I find valves a little slower with Holton, I've found that they are less likely to stick.

One possibility is that I am putting on too much oil. For years I used Holton, and I used to draw a ring round the top of the bottom section of the piston with the valve oil nossle and another ring round the bottom, then press the valve up and down a few times.

When I switched to Yamaha Synthetic Light, which seems quite a bit thinner, I started putting on more oil. I do believe that this is the right thing to do with my Yamaha trumpet and cornet, as occasionally a valve will still feel a fraction dry after oiling, so I'll add a bit more, but I'm not so sure with my Bach 37. It is worse with thicker oil, and after oiling, so I'll try a bit less.

Converserly, once it does start sticking, it gets worse and worse over the playing session. If I stop and re-oil, it doesn't improve it, and actually makes it even worse.

This makes no sense to me. If the valve was getting worse and worse during the playing session because it needed more or thicker oil, re-oiling should improve or stop the sticking, but it just makes it worse. Oiling before I put my trumpet away, and not oiling again until after I finish playing seems the least problematic, but then why does the sticking get worse and worse during the playing session.

The only thing I can think of, is that this trumpet needs a very specific amount of oil, and too much or too little sticks, with there being too much immediately after oiling, which ends up too little during a playing session.
This sounds ludicrous, as I only play for a couple of hours at a time.

Last time I played this trumpet, I alternated between it and my Xeno, so it wasn't simply a case of the trumpet getting warmer and warmer, rather since it was quite a cold Autumn day in the UK, the trumpet was cooling down whilst I played my Xeno, then warming up again when I played it. I therefore don't think that the sticking was getting worse as the trumpet got warmer.

The facts are that it is worse immediately after oiling, so I oil my trumpet before I put it away rather than before playing. If I put on a thicker oil and/or more oil before I put my trumpet away, next time I get it out of the case, it will stick straight away before I have even started playing, as demonstrated by holding the valve down momentarily and releasing it, which is accompanied by a sticking on the upstroke. If I put on a thinner oil (and possibly less oil, which I am trying at moment), it will not stick until well into the playing session, sometimes not at all. Once it does start sticking, it will get progressively worse and worse until the trumpet becomes unplayable, and this happens whether I play constantly or switch between instruments.

Any ideas considering the above?

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[lipshurt]

hi lou
OK, Im pretty sure i can explain it:

Two things, based on what you have said so far:

1) you mention the "2nd lapping".....that is generally not good. When you make or rebuild a valve (I've done quite a few) the valve is tight and lapping compound grinds away any areas where things might rub a little extra. It gives enough clearance for the oil to make a nice film between the piston and casing, but not enough clearance to let the piston have more space on one side than the other, or to get at all skewed in the casing. Binding is cuased when some part of the piston/casing has more space/clearance than another area of the piston/casing. Generally speaking the initial "lapping gets the clearance just right. A 2nd lapping would be pushing the limits of how much clearance the piston/casing can stand before it binds (sticks). You mention "2nd lapping" which is actually the 3rd lapping counting the initial manufacturing lapping. OUCH...that is a lot of lapping. Its gonna have too much clearance.

2) if you had the two extra lappings done becuase things were getting sticky and unreliable, the problem was either too much clearance caused by wear, OR distortion in the casing caused by tension in the valve cluster. This can be caused by presure inside the trumpet case. The Bach double trumpet case is really a bad culprit for this. Even squeezing the valve body too hard over time can do it, but most likley it is the case, or repairs that have caused tubes to have tension distorting the casing and make more space and less space in different areas of the piston/casing.

this leak test will tell you if you have a problem with valve clearance. basically will tell if im correct or not about your horn (could be wrong:)

​
trumpet vacuum test to check for leaks:
This test will tell you how leaky your trumpet is. It checks the general airtightness of the horn but does not show where the leaks are. it checks the whole horn with the exception of the solder joint at the bell tail. It gives a good indication of the condition of the valves, and if there is a leak somewhere in the horn. It is good to know how long any horn can hold a vacuum. new horns should be about 18 seconds. anything shorter than 3 seconds is a big problem. 5 seconds would indicate that your horn needs a thicker oil.
pull the first slide out and cover the top tube with your finger.
with the mouthpiece in the horn, suck on the mouthpiece to make a vacuum inside the horn.
seal off the mouthpiece with your tongue to keep vacuum in the trumpet.
time how many seconds it takes for there to be no more vacuum in the horn at all. This usually takes two or three times to feel where the vacuum is totally gone.
if there is a leak at a solder joint, you will usually get about 2 seconds of vacuum. Really leaky valves can show two seconds or less. The grey area is around 3 to 5 seconds, where the horn may still play ok. sometimes people actually like horns with 5 seconds of vacuum, depending on where the leaks actually are of course.
Any time you have a few bad notes on a horn that don't resonate, or a general lack of centering, or strangely out of tune notes, you could have a leak problem. If your vacuum test shows 10 to 20 seconds, your horn is not leaking. make sure you do it with your mouthpiece in the horn. That area is a potential place for a leak.
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[yourbrass]

Lou,
Forget vinegar! It's not going to do anything helpful.

Sounds like the valves are loose; don't know what else to think. I would be swabbing them clean - pistons and casings - and trying various oils. Something may work, and oil is much cheaper than a valve refit. There's also the Yamaha alloy problem which may be contributing to the sticking.

Good Luck,
-Lionel
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

[Louise Finch]