Instrument Brand Bias

[dkwolfe]

Good morning;

In a masterclass group I sit in on, the topic of instrument brands came up; as in "is there a preferred brand" or "do you need to play a particular brand of instrument to be successful"?

Yes, I know I'm opening a can of worms here.

My $0.02 for the conversation was: "when I was your age, I got hassled in just about every lesson, because I didn't play on a Bach 37. When trying horns, I never found one that felt like it played well for me. If I played my dad's Shilke (1963 B3, 4-digit SN, no, it's not for sale) or my Yamaha Xeno, it didn't matter. I got crap because it wasn't a Bach 37."

The consensus of the class (a group of college undergrads; I'm a participant in the class, not the instructor in charge) was that sound should be the most important thing.

So my question is, do people in major groups, whether in the US or around the world, still favor a particular brand, or have we gotten over that and realized that the sound is the most important thing?

Thanks,
D

p.s. Please point me to other posts that have discussed this.
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Nullius in Verba.

[dstdenis]

Hi dkwolfe. I think it varies by person. Some seem strongly motivated by brand loyalty, while others seem more open to try new things and may-the-best-instrument-win.

I have very little brand loyalty; I'm more driven to loyalty toward a particular model. For example, Bach makes some instruments I like a lot and others I don't. Same thing goes for Yamaha. I'm very happy with the particular configuration I bought, but if it weren't available, I would've gone with a different brand rather than a different Yamaha.

I don't judge another trumpeter by what s/he plays. If s/he sounds good and plays well, that's all that matters to me.

When shopping instruments, I look for (1) build quality, (2) sound, and (3) ease of play. When play-testing, I also try to estimate whether the instrument I'm playing is as good as it can be or might work better for me once I've found the best mouthpiece match, gotten the gap dialed in, and acclimated myself to the instrument.
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Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi

[trickg]

Here's my story - I'm not sure if it's completely relevant or not.

I was a Bach Strad guy - I played for years on a ML/37, and later picked up a L/25. I was playing that large bore 25 when I started working with this wedding band, and I always felt like I was working too hard to get the right sound for that group.

I got wind of a good used Schilke B6 for sale, and since I had always wanted a Schilke, and particularly a B6 (that was Bill Chase's horn after all) I grabbed it. For the wedding band, that horn sounded great, but I always had issues with the slotting. But in any case, I vowed that I'd never go back to a Bach. That was in 2005.

Later, I ended up on a Jupiter 1600i Ingram for the party band. This horn is a wonderfully playing trumpet. It slots like a dream and I believe the slotting made me a better player simply because I was much more accurate on it.

With that in mind, all of a sudden I found myself part of the classical/church/quintet scene again and to me, the Jupiter just never seemed like it sounded right in that context.

Here I am now, 12 years later, and I'm back on a Bach ML/37, although I did replace the leadpipe with a Blackburn #19-348. Why? The sound. I replaced the stock leadpipe because I don't really like the blow of the stock Bach leadpipe. I lost just a bit of the compactness of the ML/37 sound, but for everything I do, the sound just works. I use my small mouthpiece and it rips in the party band. I pop in my legit mouthpiece and it's round and warm for quintet or church.

This isn't brand loyalty by any means - I meant what I said when I said I'd never play a Bach again, and I'm somewhat confounded that I've gone back on my word, but at the end of the day, I want it to sound a certain way, and I get that with the 37 bell.

Now, having said all of that, keep in mind that the only people who are really going to notice or care in the amateur circles where I play and gig are me and a few other trumpet players. Ultimately it just doesn't matter that much.
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Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[hose]

There's brand loyalty (prejudice) in just about every idiom. Automobiles, etc. "My Dad always drove Fords and I do, too." Or, "My Dad drove Fords and I'm not falling into that hole." "Not your father's Oldsmobile" which preceded the demise of that brand.
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Dave Wisner

Picketts
Yamaha 6335RC
Yamaha 8335RS
Lawler Flugel
Kanstul cornet

[cheiden]

Some orchestras, the military, and some drum corps are the only cases where I've heard of strict brand requirement. Aside from that I've never heard anyone badgered because they didn't have the right brand horn, Bach or otherwise. I certainly have heard folks get push-back for playing boutique brands.

FWIW I've never preferred the sound of a Bach 37, though in recent decades I've come across several that sound and play great.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[Brad361]

I’ve not seen brand bias outside of those areas; concert band or orchestra, and it’s VERY present in many school systems.

Generally, in my experience, no one gives a flip what I play as long as I can PLAY it.

Brad

[Bflatman]

I can only speak from limited personal experience.

I dont care what instrument I play the sound is everything brand is nothing.

I met a few musicians who rejected instruments as rubbish and had bias, and all of them without exception sounded like crap when they played (one had a Bach Strad and sounded like crap on it), and I met other musicians who didnt reject any instruments and they all sounded great. I am told I sound great by the way.

So my very limited poll of limited personal experiences is saying I guess, players who have a bias sound like crap and players who sound great dont have a bias.

Theres a sort of logic to that.

[pepperdean]

trickg, where were you when I needed you? I went from a B6 tuning bell to a Back L/25. We could have swapped! Actually, I sold the Bach (wish I hadn't) and a day with Renold Schilke convinced me to sell my B6. He told me my he'd let me know when my horn was ready. It turned out to be an X3 with a beryllium bell. I still love that horn but I mostly play my Wild Thing now.

Alan

[jazzhorn04]

I've had a few friends who had bad run ins with brand prejudice. One had been accepted into the undergrad program he attended and decided to go on a safari. He drove all over, tried everything he could get his hands on and after a few weeks finally settled on a Schilke B1. He walked into his first lesson and his professor looks at his horn and says "If you're going to be in my studio you're going to play a Bach 37. No exceptions." Thankfully, his father was a trumpet player and had his old 37 at home.

I never understood that mentality. I get having preferences, but requiring someone to play a certain brand/model simply because it's the horn you prefer doesn't make sense to me. It's like a track coach making all his runners wear size 11 shoes because that's what he wears.

[chef8489]

[Brad361]

[Pagnardc]

For my 2 cents, I think it comes down to sound. The "Bach" sound has been a staple in the orchestra and classical world for a long time. I think certain people take it too far and make it about playing a Bach 37 or something like that. I will be honest, I grew up on one, but my teachers never made me... I will say there was a fine teacher at my school who had some students switch from their horns to a bach or Yamaha. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I will say there are certain horns that just don't lend themselves well for that type of music. To go along with that, often times younger players are not as self aware of the sound they have with a certain horn. I played a bach 37 in high school and a Grtzen Eterna Severinson for marching band. There is a huge sound difference, which I think everyone would agree. For what it'd worth I don't primarily play bach any more for my orchestral playing.

[Andy Del]

Everyone, quite simply everyone, has bias in sort form or other for something in their lives. Be it the brand of corn flakes you eat in the morning, car you drive, or trumpet you play.

I have avery strong bias towards safety in scuba diving and used what I firmly believe is the safest setup possible. You typical island resort instructor would say I had a death wish using this complex, yet to me idiot-proof, setup I used to dive with. But who is right? We both think we are.

It's exactly the same with trumpets. For every person who goes on about the 'Bach sound', we can find someone who thinks a different brand of trumpet sounds better, just as good, etc. etc.

So, my bias is away from Bach trumpets, even if a number of my students play on one. Most are tight, nasal and to me, a PITA to play. A couple are very nice, and almost feel as good as... well my nicer horns. A Kanstul Bb, A Thein C, a Schagerl rotary C.

Like most, if I found a great Bach to play, I would... and there lies the issue for me.

cheers

Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes...