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Snark tuner for 8th grader?



 
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:46 am    Post subject: Snark tuner for 8th grader? Reply with quote

Long story short: the middle school where I teach lessons bought Snark clip on tuners for the kids last year.
I had mixed feelings about this, but hey, I don’t run the band program. I do understand that a lot of kids at that level don’t KNOW whether they’re in tune, and even if they know they’re not, they don’t know if they are flat or sharp.

One kid in particular is very focused on using it, to the point where he gets uncomfortable without it. I did explain to him that when he plays in an ensemble he needs to use his ears to play in tune with the ensemble, my concern now is that because he is so focused on this tuner that he’s not learning to listen and is way too dependent on the thing.

Opinions? Is it obvious that he should be persuaded to either use it less or not at all?
By the way, this kid is a very good student who has made a LOT of progress in the two years I’ve been working with him, he is serious and practices.

Brad
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rhtrumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a teacher myself, having the awareness of tuning at a middle school level is a huge plus, though I think you're right to be concerned a bit with the student's over-reliance on the physical tuner.
Have you tried using "The Tuning CD" or other drones with your group? My band's have notoriously...ahem......"disliked" the distinct timbre of The Tuning CD drones, but there's no denying they've helped the band out, especially with forcing the students to use their ears and not their eyes to tune.
I've used cello drones from YouTube which function the same way, and it's easier on the ears.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not tell them it's for the practice room and for tuning up? After that, put it away.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
Why not tell them it's for the practice room and for tuning up? After that, put it away.


I’m hesitating doing that, though I tend to agree, because the band directors are the ones at this school who instituted using them in the ensemble. Again, I’m trying to avoid philosophical conflicts, but I think I will discuss this with the head director, he may agree in the case of this student.

Brad
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tim_wolf
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
Why not tell them it's for the practice room and for tuning up? After that, put it away.


Hmmm?


Link
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tim_wolf wrote:
Richard III wrote:
Why not tell them it's for the practice room and for tuning up? After that, put it away.


Hmmm?


Link


I was waiting for someone to post that Bergeron video.

I don’t think it’s a valid comparison, OBVIOUSLY those guys are not young, developing players. Hey, I’m not against the use of tuners at all, but in this particular case I’m concerned that my student may be depending on one and not learning how to listen and adjust without staring at a tuner.
I also doubt that if Bergeron was playing with a “lesser” ensemble that he would doggedly do what the tuner indicated and ignore what he was hearing.

Brad
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
tim_wolf wrote:
Richard III wrote:
Why not tell them it's for the practice room and for tuning up? After that, put it away.


Hmmm?


Link


I was waiting for someone to post that Bergeron video.

I don’t think it’s a valid comparison, OBVIOUSLY those guys are not young, developing players. Hey, I’m not against the use of tuners at all, but in this particular case I’m concerned that my student may be depending on one and not learning how to listen and adjust without staring at a tuner.
I also doubt that if Bergeron was playing with a “lesser” ensemble that he would doggedly do what the tuner indicated and ignore what he was hearing.

Brad

Part of the reason he has a tuner on is he also has studio monitors on with feedback from the monitors so he may need to have a visual feedback as well. The monitors kinda isolate your hearing a bit except what is coming through them especially if they are closed back.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chef8489 wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
tim_wolf wrote:
Richard III wrote:
Why not tell them it's for the practice room and for tuning up? After that, put it away.


Hmmm?


Link


I was waiting for someone to post that Bergeron video.

I don’t think it’s a valid comparison, OBVIOUSLY those guys are not young, developing players. Hey, I’m not against the use of tuners at all, but in this particular case I’m concerned that my student may be depending on one and not learning how to listen and adjust without staring at a tuner.
I also doubt that if Bergeron was playing with a “lesser” ensemble that he would doggedly do what the tuner indicated and ignore what he was hearing.

Brad

Part of the reason he has a tuner on is he also has studio monitors on with feedback from the monitors so he may need to have a visual feedback as well.


Ok, but how is what an incredibly accomplished musician is using in a studio relevant to an eighth grade kid who constantly focuses on his tuner instead of (I believe) listening? AGAIN, I have no problem with appropriate use of an electronic tuner, and I certainly would not question someone of Bergeron’s ability using one.
I do have a problem a kid using a tuner instead of developing a sense of pitch.

I don’t know for certain if that’s what’s happening, but I have concerns here.

Brad
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
chef8489 wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
tim_wolf wrote:
Richard III wrote:
Why not tell them it's for the practice room and for tuning up? After that, put it away.


Hmmm?


Link


I was waiting for someone to post that Bergeron video.

I don’t think it’s a valid comparison, OBVIOUSLY those guys are not young, developing players. Hey, I’m not against the use of tuners at all, but in this particular case I’m concerned that my student may be depending on one and not learning how to listen and adjust without staring at a tuner.
I also doubt that if Bergeron was playing with a “lesser” ensemble that he would doggedly do what the tuner indicated and ignore what he was hearing.

Brad

Part of the reason he has a tuner on is he also has studio monitors on with feedback from the monitors so he may need to have a visual feedback as well.


Ok, but how is what an incredibly accomplished musician is using in a studio relevant to an eighth grade kid who constantly focuses on his tuner instead of (I believe) listening? AGAIN, I have no problem with appropriate use of an electronic tuner, and I certainly would not question someone of Bergeron’s ability using one.
I do have a problem a kid using a tuner instead of developing a sense of pitch.

I don’t know for certain if that’s what’s happening, but I have concerns here.

Brad

I agree with you and don't think the kids should have a tuner. They should be using their ears. I dont think that video is in any way relevant to the kids. I was just explaining the video as someone posted it. I think if the kids have the tuners they will rely on them too much and not learn how to tune by ear.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chef8489 wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
chef8489 wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
tim_wolf wrote:
Richard III wrote:
Why not tell them it's for the practice room and for tuning up? After that, put it away.


Hmmm?


Link


I was waiting for someone to post that Bergeron video.

I don’t think it’s a valid comparison, OBVIOUSLY those guys are not young, developing players. Hey, I’m not against the use of tuners at all, but in this particular case I’m concerned that my student may be depending on one and not learning how to listen and adjust without staring at a tuner.
I also doubt that if Bergeron was playing with a “lesser” ensemble that he would doggedly do what the tuner indicated and ignore what he was hearing.

Brad

Part of the reason he has a tuner on is he also has studio monitors on with feedback from the monitors so he may need to have a visual feedback as well.


Ok, but how is what an incredibly accomplished musician is using in a studio relevant to an eighth grade kid who constantly focuses on his tuner instead of (I believe) listening? AGAIN, I have no problem with appropriate use of an electronic tuner, and I certainly would not question someone of Bergeron’s ability using one.
I do have a problem a kid using a tuner instead of developing a sense of pitch.

I don’t know for certain if that’s what’s happening, but I have concerns here.

Brad

I agree with you and don't think the kids should have a tuner. They should be using their ears. I dont think that video is in any way relevant to the kids. I was just explaining the video as someone posted it. I think if the kids have the tuners they will rely on them too much and not learn how to tune by ear.


Agreed, and my mistake! I incorrectly thought you had posted that video first, sorry about that.

Brad


Last edited by Brad361 on Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There might be a way to teach this kid some pros/cons of tuners without starting a religious war with the band director. Pros: good for spot-checking, especially in extreme temperature conditions. Cons: chasing the needle sounds awful.

You could also demonstrate how to play with a drone then ask him to try it. He seems motivated; maybe he'll take to drones, in which case his intonation will improve and the BD will think it's because of the clip-on tuner.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can only focus on one thing at a time. If the kid is WATCHING a tuner he will not be LISTENING. In effect he is being taught as though he is deaf.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of good responses here guys, thanks!

My plan is to mention my concerns to the head director and try to at least get the student to taper off using the tuner. He’s a good student, I think if he understands the downside he’ll be receptive to it.

Brad
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