Question posed by audience member. Females in big bands.

[greg warthan]

Hope I chose the correct area to throw this out. After a big band gig, I was chatting with several folks and had this question asked. "Why are there no women in the band?" My answer was, "I do not have an answer." Then I was asked. "Why are there so few females in big bands." These questions were asked multiple times, from different angles. I did point out some of the fine female players around the world. However, it seems to be a fact that there are fewer female players in big bands, overall. Questioner stated that their group would be back this week, so I thought I would pose the question for all of this community to ponder.
I am not looking to debate the questioner, nor anyone else. I will tell this person whatever I find and that is all. Thanks, to anyone willing to reply.
To eliminate potential confusion, the question is this.
Why are there fewer females in the big band/commercial area, at the pro level?

[Don Herman rev2]

I don't know. There were far fewer female trumpet players in band from elementary school through college when I went through. Could speculate endlessly on the "why" I suppose but why bother.

Not sure why someone would ask, not accept "I don't know", then continue to badger you. And state they plan to do it next week. You're probably going to get all sorts of answers but sounds like someone(s) in your audience simply has an agenda...

How high is up?
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[greg warthan]

Thanks Don. That is what I thought, too. How high is up, sums it up. I will not engage. The way the questions were asked, sounded like a journalist. Who knows? Doubt that too many people want to weigh in on this. Appreciate your time.

[TKSop]

There are witch-hunts like this in lots of walks of life these days - it's getting to the point where many people aren't prepared to accept that even with equal opportunities there won't necessarily be equal outcomes.

As flippant as it sounds, you might as well have answered "maybe they just don't want to, there's zero opposition to ladies being in the band, we just haven't had any interested".

(But you still can't win, with people who are never satisfied there will never be an answer that absolves you)

[kehaulani]

Frankly, I haven't led or played in a big band for about 20 years without women in the band.
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[Don Herman rev2]

In the trumpet section?

I've played in a handful the past few years (not now) and there were a couple of gals in one of the trumpet sections. Most of the big bands had several women, just not in the trumpet section.

My sample size is too small to draw any general conclusions.
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[pinstriper]

Tell them they are asking the wrong people.

They need to canvas all the women in the world and ask THEM why they aren't currently in a big band.

Only way to know.
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[kehaulani]

[Brad361]

Sounds to me in this case like the person asking did have an agenda. Honestly, you’re not required to provide anything other than a polite answer along the lines of “we really have not had any ladies interested in participating.” If that isn’t enough for the person asking, too d*** bad.

I had a lady come up to me on the stage before a gig (outdoor festival) and DEMAND to know why all the bands were behind schedule. My answer was “I don’t know, WE were here on time.” And that was it, I had no intention of discussing it further. I’m always polite to audience members, but just to a reasonable point.

Brad

[Don Herman rev2]

[Nonsense Eliminator]

So I'll be "that guy." I'm going to set aside whether the way the question was posed is appropriate and just try to answer it.

When orchestras started screening auditions, all of a sudden they started hiring more women. Maybe sometimes committees were overtly sexist -- you'd have to be pretty naive to think that the words "I don't want a girl playing the trombone" have never been uttered -- but a lot of the time their eyes were overriding what their ears were telling them and they didn't even know it.

Of course, in the past, women were actively discouraged from playing "manly" instruments like the trumpet in favour of the flute or whatever, and weren't supposed to associate with the likes of jazz musicians. So role models are hard to come by. (I know there are female jazz trumpet players, but I don't think any of them would place themselves alongside Louis or Dizzy or Miles.) And big bands are made up almost exclusively of "manly" instruments -- with the exception of the piano, I guess. So that's a lot of strikes against women in a big band.

So people, including well-meaning men, and even women, just tend to not expect women to do that. So they don't. And when they do, they probably face a little bit of a headwind because they don't look the part. On top of that, when you put a bunch of men together, whether they mean to or not, they can tend to create an atmosphere that tends to push women away. Brass sections and jazz musicians can be pretty crude, and there is a lot of casual inappropriateness in our workplaces. Some guys clean it up when there are women around, some don't. Some get worse.

I want to be clear that I'm not accusing anybody of anything, and I'm certainly not saying that I'm 100% innocent either. But the fact is that we -- men in particular, but plenty of women too -- haven't deprogrammed ourselves yet. And that's why there aren't more women in big bands.
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[LittleRusty]

Richard's post triggered a memory from my days in college brass class. My sister and another lady were in the class and they began on the tuba. They found it very funny, couldn't stop giggling, and disgusting buzzing into the mouthpiece.

Perhaps part of the reason is the same reason we don't see women spitting on the streets?

[Turkle]

I have a number of enormously talented female professional musician friends - one a trumpet player - and they have regaled me with stories regarding the enormous sexism they routinely encounter during the hiring and auditioning process for big bands, theater pits, orchestras, and pretty much any musical environment. As a man, I've never had to deal with any of the crud they put up with, and much of it is frankly shocking.

I really don't think that most people are being discriminatory on purpose - but people have implicit biases that get in the way of decision-making. We all have them, even me! Start paying attention to how often men interrupt women in everyday conversation for an example of what I'm talking about. Once you start to notice it, you'll find that it's absolutely everywhere, and no one even knows that they're doing it!

That's why blind screening processes are so important, as Richard Sandals alludes to above. I personally am in a rock band that tries to maintain an even 50/50 split, male and female, at all times. We all need to recognize our explicit and implicit biases and work to correct them and make music a welcoming environment for women. And again as Richard notes, that means not just hiring / accepting women, but making sure the environment isn't disgusting and macho to the point where women would be made uncomfortable.

My two cents, cheers everyone.
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[trickg]

It's an interesting question, and in my experience, although most of the big bands I've played with have had women in them, it was still overwhelmingly male.

I think a lot of it comes down to the old, long held stereotypes about who gravitates toward which instruments. For example, trumpet players are overwhelmingly male, but flute and clarinet players are overwhelmingly female. I'm not sure why that is, and although I have seen more cross pollination with that in recent years with more girls on trumpet, guitar, trombone, low brass and drums, those instruments are still overwhelmingly played by males.

Now, take that forward as to why there aren't more women in big bands, all you have to do is look at the basic makeup of your beginner or middle school bands and see who is on what instrument.

I also think that there is an ingrained, instinctive aspect of it too. Males are typically the peacocks and showoffs in the primate world, which means that more men will gravitate toward being performing musicians than women.
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[dstdenis]

I think it's because of a combination of cultural stereotypes and perhaps some gender-based discrimination. Some women don't try to play some of the instruments that are used in big bands because it seems like boys club. Others might try but perhaps don't feel welcome because it's boys club.

We have a women trumpeter in our jazz band. She plays well and seems to feel comfortable in the band. I don't think anyone gives a second thought to the fact that there's a women in the trumpet section. I don't know what her experience has been over the years, though.

I suppose we could turn the tables and ask why so few boys take up flute in beginner band? There's nothing wrong with the instrument—it's capable of great agility, range, and expression, and I don't think flutists get tired nearly as quickly as trumpeters do.

But when I joined beginner band, flute seemed like an instrument for girls, even though I knew that famous players included some men, like James Galway, Jean-Pierre Rampal and Ian Anderson. Nobody told me I couldn't or shouldn't play flute, but the boys didn't seem to even consider it. Besides, I knew I wanted to play the trumpet anyway.
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[pinstriper]

The fact that brass instruments are heavy could explain why you see more girls on flute and clarinet (a gateway to saxophone).

Our band has a girl vocalist, piano, and sax. We have had 2 girls go through the trumpet section. We actually have 2 partner bands. The second band has female piano, trombone, trumpet, sax, and vocalist.

As for some of the cliches already thrown out, anyone who thinks interrupting or talking over someone else is a male trait has never been married.
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[PH]

I'm not sure of all the causes. To a certain extent, it is better than in the '70s when I was young, but it still isn't equitable. Jazz bands in public schools increased opportunities and the number of girls/women opting for the career grew commensurately, but the culture of the field saw many of them frustrated to the point of opting out by the time they would hit the professional ranks.

Here is what I am curious about. When I serve as a clinician or adjudicator at high school jazz festivals I see many groups that are 50% or more girls, and in many cases the girls are the strongest players. Nonetheless, if you look at the audition videos on Youtube that applicants for the Grammy High School All Star Band are required to post you will see that fewer than 10% of the applicants are female, although many females are among the best players in their school groups. Is this a case of the girls feeling less encouragement from teachers and parents? Is it a question of girls feeling less inclined to "compete" rather than create? If we could figure things like this out we might be onto something. I do know that the athletics-styled model of auditioning (Who's in the trumpet field of 64? Who is a one and done?) that most all-star and honor bands in education and many professional groups follow rewards "competitors" rather than "creators" or "collaborators." Hmmm...
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[kehaulani]

This is a sincere question. Could part of it be that most women are not as aggressive (not assertive, aggressive) as men? And does the trumpet not attract more aggressive people?
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[bnsd]

just mansplain to the reporter why girls (which you are not) don't understand big band music.

ok... that's a joke. I don't think a guy could sincerely answer the question about why we don't have females in our band.

I can say with total sincerity, I could care less about the gender of fellow musicians. Chops, musicality, ability to get along, etc. THAT'S what matters.

I've been amazed by the number of female trombone players in San Diego. Every big band (and some rock groups) has had at least one female trombone player, and one has 3 everynight (and not the same 3... the subs, too)

It's just weird that somebody would ask the question of a male, and expect an answer... like "justify yourself"

[kehaulani]

That presupposes that that men don't have part of the answers. Seems to me that it excludes part of the problem. I think we need all observations.
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