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The_Kitchen_Sink
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Joined: 31 May 2016
Posts: 55
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 Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| TKSop wrote: |
Regardless of how well Trent's doublers horns play (FTR, not played any of them), their resale value is going to leave you with a noticeable loss, whilst a secondhand Selmer that's been well looked after might even go up in value, a Getzen that's well looked after will probably keep its value fairly steadily.
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What is it about a Selmer that would make it go up in value?
Do the Selmer or Getzen have specific playing characteristics not found as readily in other piccs? I know my Selmer C and Getzen C are completely different beasts, so I'd imagine their piccs are the same. Playing on my Selmer at work today and then my Getzen this evening as I cooked dinner, I was reminded just how much I love my Getzen.
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1971-72 Bach Strad 37 ML Bb
1960 Olds Studio Bb
1972-73 Getzen Eterna ML C
1982-83 Selmer C700 ML C
1985-86 Getzen Eterna Picc
1947-ish Reynolds "Professional" Cornet
1975-ish Yamaha 631 Flugelhorn
Mark Curry 5 Rims |
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JoseLindE4
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 791
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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I've played piccolos that played easier, more easily in tune, more like a big horn, etc., but I've never picked up a piccolo that sounds like a good older Selmer. Their reputation is that they are difficult to play and aren't in tune without the Blackburn pipes, but mine works fine stock (no alternate fingerings needed). Once you get used to the quirks and the blow, there's nothing like the sound they can produce.
I doubt you'll find one for under $1000 anymore, but jump on it if you do. I bought mine from Dillon about 15-20 years ago for about $900 I think. They sent two for me to try out. One was ok, the other sounded like the heavens parting. I've never had a setting where it didn't work just fine. I think it's from the mid-70s. I've never even considered purchasing a newer horn that costs 4 times as much. I've never even had horn envy.
Nothing against any other makers, but I'm pretty sure Maurice Andre sprinkled some special pixie dust over some of those old Selmers. |
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dkwolfe
Veteran Member
Joined: 01 May 2015
Posts: 116
Location: North of the sweet tea line
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| TrentAustin wrote: | | The_Kitchen_Sink wrote: | | TrentAustin wrote: | I truly believe our newest ACB 4-valve piccolo is a game-changer in the market. We have worked for many years to design it and finally have the results we want.
Trent |
Hey Trent, that's awesome. They do look nice, and the videos you posted in other threads really got me interested in the horn. If I can get to a presentable level on a piccolo trumpet, it will be used a few times each month in performance on descant lines and some baroque music mixed with strings and choir (mostly fancier church gigs). In your opinion, will your NEW ACB Doublers Picc with your upgraded picc mouthpiece solid enough for that type of regular use? |
I wouldn't sell it if I wouldn't take on a gig of my own. It sounds like more than enough of horn for what you are using it for.
Best,
T |
Good Morning;
After following this thread for a bit (and being very interested in getting a Piccolo trumpet as well), I looked at Trent's website. How does the 4 valve piston doubler compare to the rotary version? Price not withstanding (there's about $150 difference between the two), which one would you hand to someone who is just trying to learn to play a piccolo trumpet, and why?
Thanks,
D
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Nullius in Verba. |
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andybharms
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Joined: 23 May 2009
Posts: 633
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:22 am Post subject: |
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The 4-valve Getzen is often still found for under $1000. It is a very good instrument with a Blackburn pipe.
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Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com |
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Craig Swartz
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Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 7770
Location: Des Moines, IA area
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:44 am Post subject: |
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If you have not played pic before, what ever you decide to purchase will likely get you started on the right foot. My first pic was a silver plated Selmer purchased new around 1978 from a band instrument discounter in SD for $450. It was ok in A with alternate fingerings but nearly impossible in Bb, at least for me. Later, I came up with an old Getzen 4 piston (short model) that was no better, then purchased a Besson/Kanstul pre 920 at a music store trumpet feature night that was out-of-this-world good. I've also picked up and tried/resold Benge and Yamaha 4 piston horns and settled on a P5-4 around 1987 or so when I was made an offer I couldn't refuse. It took a long mouthpiece search to produce the sound on the Schilke I made on the Kanstul but I've been quite happy with it. A year of so back I picked up a Chinese copy (Berkely) of the Yamaha 3 piston plus rotor 4th from a local and if all I needed to do was weddings and occasional short gigs it'd be just fine. (Perhaps because I've played pic for some time...)
Long story short- like other trumpet purchases we make, I would not place all of my stock in saying that the first one will be the only one I'll ever own. Get something to start on- if it takes and agrees with you, you'll know if you need better. If you buy right, you'll probably not lose much if you sell it later. Personally- I'd probably give Trent's stuff a try for the price, plus it is new and he'll stand behind any issues you'd run into if it didn't work properly. Or, you could buy my Berkely very cheap  Good luck. |
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The_Kitchen_Sink
Regular Member
Joined: 31 May 2016
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:14 am Post subject: |
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I have to get one of these!
I borrowed a friend's four-valved Yamaha for the week, and it is so much fun!!!
I don't have any "picc" mouthpieces, so today I'm using an Olds 3 as it seems (according to my orchestra students) to sound the best. What do you guys use?
I know Trent offers a 7-rim picc mouthpiece upgrade with his doublers picc. Has anyone used that one?
_________________
1971-72 Bach Strad 37 ML Bb
1960 Olds Studio Bb
1972-73 Getzen Eterna ML C
1982-83 Selmer C700 ML C
1985-86 Getzen Eterna Picc
1947-ish Reynolds "Professional" Cornet
1975-ish Yamaha 631 Flugelhorn
Mark Curry 5 Rims |
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acritzer
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Joined: 29 Nov 2009
Posts: 827
Location: Cincinnati, OH
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| The_Kitchen_Sink wrote: | I have to get one of these!
I borrowed a friend's four-valved Yamaha for the week, and it is so much fun!!!
I don't have any "picc" mouthpieces, so today I'm using an Olds 3 as it seems (according to my orchestra students) to sound the best. What do you guys use?
I know Trent offers a 7-rim picc mouthpiece upgrade with his doublers picc. Has anyone used that one? |
I have a 7PT on the way. I'll jump back in after I test it out. |
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JoseLindE4
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 791
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Craig Swartz wrote: | | Long story short- like other trumpet purchases we make, I would not place all of my stock in saying that the first one will be the only one I'll ever own. |
Funny thing, my horns are almost entirely my first purchase for each type.
My current C, Eb, and piccolo are all the first I bought. I made a leadpipe change to my C, but did that as I purchased it. My piccolo mouthpiece is the first that I tried (Bach 7E). After bouncing around big horn mouthpieces for 5-10 years in my late teens and early 20s, I'm back to the same size that I started on. I'm on my second adult Bb, but I bought it in college almost 20 years ago. My first cornet is my current cornet and I use the mouthpiece that came with it.
Maybe I should sell my services to people on horn/mouthpiece safaris. |
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Shark01
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Joined: 10 Jun 2017
Posts: 283
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: |
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I did what a lot of guys here are suggesting, I bought an old Getzen Eterna 4 valve made in the mid 70s for $600 on ebay. Since piccolos are not used much, seems like a lot of even old horns are in good shape.
I bought a Blackburn pipe for the Bb, not sure it has really improved anything.
It has been a very good starter Piccolo. One advantage for a new player is the small bore (0.420). I'll move on eventually sure, but basically I will have played this for a few years for free. |
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TKSop
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Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| The_Kitchen_Sink wrote: |
What is it about a Selmer that would make it go up in value?
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Two things - supply/demand and legendary status.
The supply will go down with time as the number in good playing condition dimishes (slowly, but it is and will continue to do so) and the demand won't go down significantly since it has that legendary status - they have a unique and pleasing sound, and they're strongly associated with quite probably the best piccolo trumpet player (Maurice Andre).
| Craig Swartz wrote: | | like other trumpet purchases we make, I would not place all of my stock in saying that the first one will be the only one I'll ever own. Get something to start on- if it takes and agrees with you, you'll know if you need better. If you buy right, you'll probably not lose much if you sell it later. Personally- I'd probably give Trent's stuff a try for the price, plus it is new and he'll stand behind any issues you'd run into if it didn't work properly. |
Very much this - piccs are quite a personal thing... personally, that argument is what would lead me away from the ACB (again, regardless of whether it's the equal of a second-hand pro model or not; and regardless of how good Trent's CS is, despite positive experiences with him) because if the odds of wanting to switch it are high then I'd want to lose as little money as possible to be able to put it into my next horn.
Personally, I think the smart money is in used - but there's definitely an emotional pull towards new stuff and as Craig says above you get peace of mind with the new horn from ACB. |
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8914
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| dkwolfe wrote: | | After following this thread for a bit (and being very interested in getting a Piccolo trumpet as well), I looked at Trent's website. How does the 4 valve piston doubler compare to the rotary version? Price not withstanding (there's about $150 difference between the two), which one would you hand to someone who is just trying to learn to play a piccolo trumpet, and why? |
The long bell 4-valve is probably the best choice. I've enjoyed tinkering rotary models but can't yet see having one as my only picc.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Andy Del
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2665
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:42 am Post subject: |
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I really can't understand the obsession with maintaining the money one puts into a trumpet! You buy it, then use it (and use it) and expect it to have retained its value. The real world will not work like this unless you wait years and years for inflation to overcome a less valuable, used horn's worth.
If you want too buy a piccolo, go out and play some. Find one that at least isn't impossible to play, buy it and get cracking.
You may keep it or move onto another instrument. Whatever you do, you WILL have to put some $$$ into it, and in most cases you will NOT make money on it. Our hobby / career choice does require some investment... a piccolo is not a very large one!
cheers
Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes... |
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dr_trumpet
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 2533
Location: Cope, IN
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Andy Del wrote: | I really can't understand the obsession with maintaining the money one puts into a trumpet! You buy it, then use it (and use it) and expect it to have retained its value. The real world will not work like this unless you wait years and years for inflation to overcome a less valuable, used horn's worth.
If you want too buy a piccolo, go out and play some. Find one that at least isn't impossible to play, buy it and get cracking.
You may keep it or move onto another instrument. Whatever you do, you WILL have to put some $$$ into it, and in most cases you will NOT make money on it. Our hobby / career choice does require some investment... a piccolo is not a very large one!
cheers
Andy |
People do occasionally grow or change as players, and one of the areas I have often seen players change is their desired piccolo trumpet. Getting good resale value out of your first horn is a good first step toward purchasing a new horn for many. In that case, getting the price paid for an instrument sold to finance a new horn is a huge step` toward that horn. Getting close to the price sold is a close second.
If I bought a used Selmer four years ago for $800, and I maintained it well, I could easily get $1000-1200 out of the trumpet right now. If I used it for four years, the use during that time has some value to me as well. So, real value to me during that time, even with a sales price $200-400 higher than my purchase price, is a great step in that financial investment toward a new horn.
I love your advice on going to play some...sometimes even several of the same model play differently, and playing it is the only way to really know.
An initial investment (and successive investments) are no doubt a part of all of these situations. No disagreement. But why not get the best deal you can for your old horn that may be just the perfect first horn for someone else?
All my best,
AL
If my second horn is a brand new Schilke P5-4, then there will be a loss in price the minute I carry it out the door from the music store, or it arrives in box and I open it. If I hold onto it for 28 years (as I have my current piccolo), the purchase price now will sound incredibly cheap in 28 years, just as the price of the piccolo I bought in 1989 does today.
_________________
Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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The_Kitchen_Sink
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Joined: 31 May 2016
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone know the bore size of the newer ACB Doublers? I read the Eternas are .420.
Playing an old Yamaha today, quiet was not a word that would sum up my sessions. Is this just generally harder to do with a picc?
_________________
1971-72 Bach Strad 37 ML Bb
1960 Olds Studio Bb
1972-73 Getzen Eterna ML C
1982-83 Selmer C700 ML C
1985-86 Getzen Eterna Picc
1947-ish Reynolds "Professional" Cornet
1975-ish Yamaha 631 Flugelhorn
Mark Curry 5 Rims |
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JoseLindE4
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 791
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| It isn't a big horn, so it shouldn't be played like one. Think normal singing voice vs. falsetto. |
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cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8914
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| The_Kitchen_Sink wrote: | Does anyone know the bore size of the newer ACB Doublers? I read the Eternas are .420.
Playing an old Yamaha today, quiet was not a word that would sum up my sessions. Is this just generally harder to do with a picc? |
I've only played a few piccs that were noticeably harder to play quietly. It hasn't been an issue with the Yamaha piccs I've tried. I find that my particular Kanstul is a bit harder to play quietly when compared to similar models, but it's manageable.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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The_Kitchen_Sink
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Joined: 31 May 2016
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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This post has been incredibly helpful. From information presented here and in other posts, I've decided to put off purchasing a piccolo trumpet until both my skills improve and until I can acquire a used professional-level horn. I nearly bid on an older Getzen Eterna this afternoon, but decided against it. My range just isn't there yet. Once I can play piccolo literature in the correct octave on my Bb, then I'll be appropriately ready to own one. Until then, I need to be patient and keep working.
_________________
1971-72 Bach Strad 37 ML Bb
1960 Olds Studio Bb
1972-73 Getzen Eterna ML C
1982-83 Selmer C700 ML C
1985-86 Getzen Eterna Picc
1947-ish Reynolds "Professional" Cornet
1975-ish Yamaha 631 Flugelhorn
Mark Curry 5 Rims |
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dr_trumpet
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 2533
Location: Cope, IN
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Kitchen_Sink wrote: | | This post has been incredibly helpful. From information presented here and in other posts, I've decided to put off purchasing a piccolo trumpet until both my skills improve and until I can acquire a used professional-level horn. I nearly bid on an older Getzen Eterna this afternoon, but decided against it. My range just isn't there yet. Once I can play piccolo literature in the correct octave on my Bb, then I'll be appropriately ready to own one. Until then, I need to be patient and keep working. |
What a great post! Looking forward to hearing of your progress, and if I can offer any assistance, I would be thrilled to help!
Good Luck!
AL
_________________
Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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Geodude
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Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 588
Location: Chicago 'burbs
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ATTABOYs to both Kitchen Sink and Dr. Al Lilly. It is heartening to see someone benefit from the collective wisdom here on TH and then commit to additional time in the woodshed rather than looking for a silver bullet. And thanks too for the generosity of folks like the good doctor who generously offer to help those who are not quite as far along the path. I hope all of your musical aspirations are realized. |
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TrentAustin
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