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Turkle
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Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 2450
Location: New York City

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:15 pm Post subject:

homebilly wrote:

*** devils advocate warning ***

what if you are subbing on the jazz chair in a big band that only plays
original tunes?

you are going to have to be able to sight read changes in a big way
as you will have no time to wait to hear the progression to be able
to figure it out.

this is another part of the art of improvising

+1. I do some work with singer-songwriters and it's often a similar situation. "Hey, I'm playing this tune tonight, here are the changes, you're soloing over the 4th chorus." Of course all the tunes are in guitar-player keys...!!! Better have your concert-B licks up to date!

Or, for that matter, the recording studio. I've been brought in to record a solo over changes that I'm seeing the first time. With the studio, of course, you have some time to figure out what's going on before they start rolling the tape, but you'd better be able to play something hip right off the page.

I personally think that part of the integral process of learning a tune is knowing the changes. If you can't write the changes for your rhythm section, you don't know the tune.

And yes, ideally, you've so internalized the changes that you don't need to think about them while you're improvising. But come on! I have over 150 tunes in my book for my combo. I'd say about 1/3 of them I've totally internalized and don't need to think about the chords, another 1/3 of them I need to think about the chords at least a little bit while I'm playing, and another 1/3 I need to look at the music still. There's no shame in that game! Get through the gig, man! Live to fight another day!

Also, when we're thinking about chords when we play, we're generally not thinking about *every* chord. Like "I'll Remember April," if I haven't played it in a while, I'm thinking something like this:

1) Modal in A
2) Modal in A-
3) ii-V in A-
4) ii-V in B-
5) ii-V-I in A

So, you know, you think about things in "chunks" that give you a road map, not every single chord you're going to see in the tune.

Cheers, hope this makes sense.
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TrumpetMD
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Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 2412
Location: Maryland

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:44 pm Post subject:

Turkle wrote:

I personally think that part of the integral process of learning a tune is knowing the changes. If you can't write the changes for your rhythm section, you don't know the tune.

This has been my experience, too.

Back to the OP, who asked for help to "understood the process" of learning the changes. I repeat my initial suggestion, that if this is something he wants to learn, he might want to find a good methodology and work through it.

Mike
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Turkle
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Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 2450
Location: New York City

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:55 pm Post subject:

TrumpetMD wrote:

Turkle wrote:

I personally think that part of the integral process of learning a tune is knowing the changes. If you can't write the changes for your rhythm section, you don't know the tune.

Good point, and thanks for the help getting the thread back on track.

Some people have recommended a "visual targeting" system, like https://www.jazzadvice.com/visualization-for-jazz-improvisation-ebook/

That never worked for me since I am about the least "visual" person on the planet. But some people I know have used similar strategies with great success.
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dershem
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Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 1887
Location: San Diego, CA

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:09 pm Post subject:

mm55 wrote:

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:

I've watched James Morrison several times finish a solo, have the next person start their solo, put his horn down, meander over to the piano, sit down, and start comping on the piano from the middle of the tune. So he actually knows the changes in at least two keys, and is definitely thinking the changes as he plays.

More likely, he knows the changes in "any" key, which is far more useful than knowning them in multiple keys. I think this is the approach that Phil Woods used. I think of Rhythm changes as I-VI-ii-V, not "Bb G7 Cm7 F7". I-VI-ii-V works in any key.

Exactly. My pop and one of my brothers were bass players, and both of them have said that when they hear a tune, they hear "I, V7, ii, IV..." The structure of the tune is everything to a bass player, and if you want to learn fundamental structure, learn to play a walking bass line. Once you get that down, adding a melodic layer on top is much easier.
Not that I'm nearly as good at that as I should be.

jengstrom
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Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 427
Location: Rochester, NY

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:51 pm Post subject:

mm55 wrote:

This. In spades.

John
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Trumpetingbynurture
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Joined: 18 Nov 2015
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:39 pm Post subject:

mm55 wrote:

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:

More likely, he knows the changes in "any" key, which is far more useful than knowing them in multiple keys. I think this is the approach that Phil Woods used. I think of Rhythm changes as I-VI-ii-V, not "Bb G7 Cm7 F7". I-VI-ii-V works in any key.

Yes, of course. That's why I said 'at least two keys'. I have no first-hand knowledge that lets me say he could do it if the song suddenly modulated a tritone. I believe he could, but I can't claim that, all I can claim is that he can do it in at least two keys. I agree that any one with even limited theory pretty soon learns it in terms of functional harmony rather than just isolated chord names.

Quote:

I disagree totally. You don't need to know the names of the chords, the names of the notes in the chords or the names of the notes in general to be able to improvise fluently. What you need to know are the sounds/pitches and you need to be able to respond instinctively, spontaneously and accurately to the sounds/pitches.

I call BS.
You're making a few slightly misleading assertions based on what Hal Galper teaches. I like Hal's videos and, I own his books, but you have to separate the experience of improvising and the experience of preparing to improvise. They are not the same thing.

Personally, I think it's very misleading to say that the greats were playing by ear. You can tell this by looking at their solos. If you get a transcription of a Charlie Parker solo, and you work out the number of chord tones being played, and then you include in your count enclosure patterns, you end up with as much as 90% of the notes accounted for. This is true for the vast majority of good jazz improvisers.

Next, what are these players practising to become good jazz musicians? You better believe that Parker was playing chords, scales, arpeggios and practising enclosure patterns. There are eye/ear witnesses of this.

To my knowledge, there are actually very few exclusively 'ear' improvisers, and in my reckoning, most of them have perfect pitch, so they are still getting their theory, it's just coming via the ear. Chet Baker is one of these.

In terms of academic approaches to Jazz, this sort of accusation falls flat once students get out of the 'kiddies pool' of improvising. Like the Bobby shew article, I linked to, chord tones and scales are where you get started.
And the academic approach to my mind would be if someone was taught that the only thing you can do over a minor 7 is play a Dorian scale, and you never question that, and the dorian scale was the only thing you ever played over it, because that's the only 'right' thing. In reality, almost everyone who learns to improvise sooner or later ends up learning by exploring, experimenting and playing with things.
There's nothing 'academic' about that. In terms of improvising in the moment, sure some guys are 'mentally creative', getting their ideas from an idea of a musical pattern, rather than something heard in the inner ear, but reality is that it's pretty hard to convincingly play something that you can't hear.
I would argue that it would be REALLY difficult to play a convincing jazz solo with your ears turned off. It's a matter of degrees. Maybe one guy is 70/30 theory/aural imagination and the other is 30/70. Fine. Who cares?

Also, everyone is different. There isn't a moral impetus that says that improvisation must be purely from the mind's ear. We might point at that as being the ideal, but it's not a moral issue. Different people player KILLER solos using their brains in different ways. Honestly, I doubt with high-level improvisers whether it is possible to be sure either way without actually asking them.

The thing that makes an artform an artform IMO is that there is space for people to think about it in different ways. That's what keeps it living.

Last edited by Trumpetingbynurture on Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:42 pm; edited 2 times in total

jhatpro
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:39 pm Post subject:

Lot of really good insights in this thread! _________________ Jim Hatfield "The notes are there - find them.” Mingus 2021 Martinus Geelan Custom 2005 Bach 180-72R 1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen 1946 Conn Victor 1998 Scodwell flugel 1986 Bach 181 cornet 1954 Conn 80A cornet 2002 Getzen bugle

BGinNJ
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Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 380

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:17 am Post subject:

Quote:

And yes, ideally, you've so internalized the changes that you don't need to think about them while you're improvising. But come on! I have over 150 tunes in my book for my combo. I'd say about 1/3 of them I've totally internalized and don't need to think about the chords, another 1/3 of them I need to think about the chords at least a little bit while I'm playing, and another 1/3 I need to look at the music still. There's no shame in that game! Get through the gig, man! Live to fight another day!

That makes a lot of sense, for soloing as a horn player. That is, the standard for really knowing the changes isn't quite as high as being an accompianist like a pianist or guitarist.

As a guitarist as well, though it's not my approach, there are plenty of blues and rock guitar slingers who don't know theory- they know box patterns, pentatonic scales, licks. Of course the music is harmonically much simpler, mostly just major, dom7, minor, and the occasional diminished, etc.

Yamahaguy
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Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 3992

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:01 am Post subject:

BeboppinFool wrote:

That's the truth, no candy coating, no warm fuzzies. If you don't know what the changes are, you're constantly hoping for miracles . . . you are not living in the real world.

Love this! So true...

jengstrom
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Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 427
Location: Rochester, NY

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:03 am Post subject:

BGinNJ wrote:

As a guitarist as well, though it's not my approach, there are plenty of blues and rock guitar slingers who don't know theory- they know box patterns, pentatonic scales, licks. Of course the music is harmonically much simpler, mostly just major, dom7, minor, and the occasional diminished, etc.

It's not just guitar players. I know plenty of wind instrument players whose solos all sound the same because all they think about is licks. They mindlessly play 'licks' with the same lack of musical direction as they play (or try to play) high notes.

I'm not in Chet's league, but I do tend to solo melodically, and I don't think consciously much about the chords (unless I'm sight reading an chart I've never heard). All those scales, arpeggios, and intervals that were so numbingly boring for so many years come popping out during a solo, and they fit inside the chords.

Who da thought?

John
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Trumpetingbynurture
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:59 pm Post subject:

Here's something from Bert Ligon's book on the three basic approaches taken in improvising.

BeboppinFool
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:11 am Post subject:

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:

Here's something from Bert Ligon's book on the three basic approaches taken in improvising.

Excellent . . . I love this. Bert is an amazing composer and arranger, by the way (have played his charts but haven't heard him play), and I suspect he is able to improvise over changes with remarkable harmonic specificity.
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