Brass Band Vibrato

[drtrumpet1]

So I've started playing with the brass band I auditioned for a while back (thanks again for the advice on repertoire!). I'm like a kid in a candy store - it's so much fun! I'm playing on a Yamaha Xeno cornet with a GR 67 mouthpiece. I'm trying some other pieces out - haven't found the combo I really like yet.

What's really hard for me is that distinctive, fast vibrato that we hear in the cornets of British brass bands. How do you all achieve this sound - breath, fingers, chops? Any advice on how to practice it? I have been listening to tons of brass band music, and am experimenting mainly with breath and chop vibrato. I know it takes time, but any advice is appreciated!
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Bach Model 37 Bb
Stomvi Mahler C
Reynolds Argenta Cornet

[dstdenis]

Here's a video with vibrato advice from two preeminent BBB cornetists.
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi

[Louise Finch]

[Dale Proctor]

In the U.S., you don't want that vibrato. I don't think it's that prevalent in the U.K. any more, either.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[comebackcornet]

How much vibrato to use and when is very subjective. However, I will tell you that my playing experience is primarily with "British style" Brass Bands and cornet player vibrato is a natural effect of the chops - i.e. do not alter the blow or use the fingers.

(Of course I am speaking only to BBB cornet playing - I know finger vibrato is used by many trumpet virtuoso's.)

[TKSop]

The stereotypical 100%-of-the-tine-on kind of vib isn't popular for sure - it needs to be something you can switch on and off at will, to be used when appropriate and in a way that is appropriate (sometimes that's all-on, sometimes it's starting the note straight and intruding the vib gradually, etc)

[p76]

It's definitely a chop vibrato to get it right. But, agree with other posters here, it's not standard to use it all the time - more for soloistic pieces and perhaps hymns.

You need to feel like it's musical when you appy/don't apply it, follow/ask the principal cornet and MD for their advice.

It is something that is not usually heard in US Bands, and here Downunder we have a bit of everything, a lot of English folk down here play in bands and use the English vib., while the home-grown players tend to use it less.

It is hard to learn if you didn't grow up doing it

Cheers,
Roger
_________________
Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel

[drtrumpet1]

Thanks, all! Some good feedback. Lots of practicing to do.
_________________
Bach Model 37 Bb
Stomvi Mahler C
Reynolds Argenta Cornet

[Louise Finch]

Hi drtrumpet1

Sorry, I forgot to reply to the second part of your question.

The vibrato you mention is pretty old fashioned nowadays, and something to be used sparingly and on appropriate repertoire. I don't tend to use it, preferring rubato and other methods of expression for solo. Hymns such as this one (obviously not a brass band, I'm in a hurry this morning) and Abide with me come to mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSKUf2RxDUk

I'm not really sure how I do it, but it is not at all with the fingers, and is somehow with the lips or breath. It just comes when I think it. Probably mine is more of general vibrato than the specific one you mention i.e. wider and more subtle.

You are probably referring to what is often derogatorily described as a nanny goat vibrato.

This is probably no help, sorry.

Take care

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[GordonH]

The reason for the vibrato was that the cornet, as a solo instrument, was pretending to be a light opera singer. Opera singers use vibrato and therefore so did cornet players. Also, the cornet in a brass band takes the part of the violin in an orchestra and violins use vibrato in an orchestra.

The reason vibrato declined was two fold:

1. The more orchestral, trumpety nature of compositions post 1980.

2. The increased number of cornet players who studied trumpet at university or have come to the cornet from the trumpet.

There is some evidence that vibrato got wider during the transition period from high to low pitch (mid 60s) when bands had mixed sets of instruments - some relying on pulling slides out, some with conversions and some that couldn't get low enough on the pitch. I have also seen conductors use vibrato to cover up other intonation problems.

It should really be a narrow, fast vibrato produced by moving the bottom jaw so you can turn it on and off at will.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

[Andy Del]

If the stereotypical British cornet players were imitating good singers, then they didn't do a very good job of it! This typical nanny goat vibrato, fast, constant and never ending is nothing like a singer's. (At least competent ones)

There can be all sorts of theorising about they whys of it, but it certainly isn't based on the practices of great singers, as so many, including Arban advised to imitate.

Totally unlike an orchestral string section, which shapes the explicitly taught technique of vibrato to create warmth and colour to the sound, a traditional BBB blurs pitch and tonal deficiencies with unending wobble.

All with what I hear as a thin, quite nasty sound, while I feel like I am standing on a vibration mat. There has to be a better way to bell this particular cat!

cheers

Andy (now ducking out of sight of the local brass bands!)
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so many horns, so few good notes...

[SirBuzzALot]

Andy, clearly (as ive said to you before) your listening to some some pretty weird bands in your local area or ancient recordings from the depths of time. Modern BBB generally sound rich , warm and dont wobble. No thin nasty sounds last time I went to watch Cory band - in fact the exact opposite.
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Yamaha Meastro Bb Cornet
B&H Round Stamp LB Sovereign Bb Cornet
F Besson Meha Flugelhorn (Kanstul)

[GordonH]

Singers of older periods used stacks of vibrato. That was what influenced that style. People did not have access to recordings so they would imitate local singers.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

[Robert Rowe]

Try emulating that amazing vibrato Harry James (as did Ray Anthony, and a FEW others) employed on those lush, romantic ballads of that era.

Not easy, when done so v tastefully ....

[Dale Proctor]

I used to have a pronounced vibrato that I found myself slipping into while playing. I acquired it playing solos with a concert band and a dance band for years, but would catch myself using it on classical music too, which is a no-no. It took a lot of work to make it "optional" in my playing. A bad habit, for sure. A little goes a long way...
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[Bflatman]

Lots of opinion of what vibrato is and where it came from but I dont see an answer to the OP question.

I think the problem is the OP basically asked, how can I get the vibrato that I am thinking about.

This cannot be answered.

Can the OP post a video example of the vibrato he wants to emulate. I for one dont hear fast distinctive vibrato in Brass Bands so I have no idea what vibrato the OP is seeking.

[dstdenis]

It was answered in the very first response.
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi

[Bflatman]

I dont think so

The Op said "that distinctive, fast vibrato that we hear in the cornets of British brass bands. How do you all achieve this sound"

The first response simply linked a video of vibrato used in brass bands, however later responses said that this vibrato is no longer used in brass bands, it has gone out of style.

Dale said "you don't want that vibrato. I don't think it's that prevalent in the U.K. any more, either."

comebackcornet said "I will tell you that my playing experience is primarily with "British style" Brass Bands and cornet player vibrato is a natural effect of the chops - i.e. do not alter the blow or use the fingers." and that disagrees with the content presented in the video.

So if the video is not presenting the current style and the OP wants to learn the current style, what is the current style and what is the OP listening to.

[p76]

Did you watch the video? It was two of the best exponents of BBB cornet playing describing how to do the vibrato.

Cheers,
Roger
_________________
Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel

[dstdenis]

Here's a video of Richard Marshall, one of the cornetists from the video and principal cornet with Black Dyke Band, performing a solo about a year ago (note the tasteful use of vibrato):


Link

_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi