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p.gehres New Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2017 Posts: 8
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:16 pm Post subject: Flugelhorn Shopping |
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I was trying out some flugelhorns today, as I am starting to think about buying one. Unfortunately, the store had less of a selection than I had hoped. I did get to play a Conn, Yamaha, Schilke, Cousenon, and Calicchio horns (I unfortunately do not remember all of the models). The Conn Vintage One was probably my favorite. What are your thoughts on good pro, but not super expensive flugelhorns? Also how significant is the finish (they only had lacquered where I went today.)? (i.e. lacquer v. satin v. silver). |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Flugelhorn Shopping |
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p.gehres wrote: | I was trying out some flugelhorns today, as I am starting to think about buying one. Unfortunately, the store had less of a selection than I had hoped. I did get to play a Conn, Yamaha, Schilke, Cousenon, and Calicchio horns (I unfortunately do not remember all of the models). |
That's actually a really good selection of flugels in a brick and mortar store. Most places maybe have one or two, if any. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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lakejw Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 543 Location: Brooklyn, New York
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Those are all good horns you mention. Where are you located? Honestly that's a pretty decent flugelhorn selection for a lot of areas/music stores.
Vintage Ones are very nice horns. They're on on the warm/big/diffuse side of the spectrum, IMO. I prefer something will a little more center to the tone. My XO horn has the ideal sound and feel for me. The Yamaha Shew flugs are really nice too.
Finish/plating is entirely personal preference. Once you settle on a model you like, see if you can travel somewhere to try (or have a retailer send you) one of each finish to see which you like best. For example, the XO Brass flugels come in lacquer or silver, and they offer rose or yellow brass bells, so 4 possible combinations. Luckily Dillon music had one of each in stock that I could try before buying. _________________ New Album "ensemble | in situ" on Bandcamp
johnlakejazz.com |
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p.gehres New Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2017 Posts: 8
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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I was actually at Dillon's today - they were a little lower on horns than I expected. I'm definitely looking for a darker, almost trombone-esque sound. _________________ Student, Ithaca College SoM
Bach Stradivarius 180 ML 37 Silver, 713XXX
Bach Stradivarius 180 ML 239 Lacquer, 64XXX
Dillon Flugelhorn Rose Brass Lacquer, 78XXX |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7010 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Modern lacquer finishes don't affect the sound of the instrument like the old nitro-cellulose finishes did. So, buy what you want to look at.
I've played most of the horns you've listed and a few others, such as Adams, Inderbinen, Jupiter and Kanstul. I haven't played Van Laar, which I hear only good things about.
Every Kanstul-made flugelhorn I've played was a good instrument. Three were among the best in the world. One is the finest instrument I've ever owned in all aspects and ranks among the best two brass instruments I've ever experienced. That flugelhorn is the Wild Thing by Flip Oakes.
There are more expensive flugelhorn, but I don't think there is a finer one. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2651 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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p.gehres wrote: | I was actually at Dillon's today - they were a little lower on horns than I expected. I'm definitely looking for a darker, almost trombone-esque sound. |
Word to the wise. Whatever you buy, be aware that resale values vary wildly. Look around at used ones too. Few people wear them out as it is usually a side horn and not their main player. And what you buy now, may not be the one you eventually evolve to. I thought a dark and smokey one was what I wanted but now I really dislike that sound. That's why I passed up the Adams F2 because it locked me into that sound. My F1 can do it all but really lives in the more lively range. And speaking of range, it was the only one I tried that had that easy and in tune upper range. Best of luck. _________________ Richard
Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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You should try Kanstul 1525 and also Getzen Custom Reserve. Then buy something in your budget, like maybe a nice used Yamaha 631? |
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p.gehres New Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2017 Posts: 8
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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razeontherock wrote: | You should try Kanstul 1525 and also Getzen Custom Reserve. Then buy something in your budget, like maybe a nice used Yamaha 631? |
Any idea where in the Northeast U.S. one can try these horns? _________________ Student, Ithaca College SoM
Bach Stradivarius 180 ML 37 Silver, 713XXX
Bach Stradivarius 180 ML 239 Lacquer, 64XXX
Dillon Flugelhorn Rose Brass Lacquer, 78XXX |
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p.gehres New Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2017 Posts: 8
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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lakejw wrote: | Those are all good horns you mention. Where are you located? Honestly that's a pretty decent flugelhorn selection for a lot of areas/music stores.
Vintage Ones are very nice horns. They're on on the warm/big/diffuse side of the spectrum, IMO. I prefer something will a little more center to the tone. My XO horn has the ideal sound and feel for me. The Yamaha Shew flugs are really nice too.
Finish/plating is entirely personal preference. Once you settle on a model you like, see if you can travel somewhere to try (or have a retailer send you) one of each finish to see which you like best. For example, the XO Brass flugels come in lacquer or silver, and they offer rose or yellow brass bells, so 4 possible combinations. Luckily Dillon music had one of each in stock that I could try before buying. |
Any ideas on a retailer that would send multiple instruments without having to pay the full price for all of them upfront? I know that might be asking a little too much... _________________ Student, Ithaca College SoM
Bach Stradivarius 180 ML 37 Silver, 713XXX
Bach Stradivarius 180 ML 239 Lacquer, 64XXX
Dillon Flugelhorn Rose Brass Lacquer, 78XXX |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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p.gehres wrote: | I'm definitely looking for a darker, almost trombone-esque sound. |
If you're looking for a flugel with a dark, mellow sound, you should try a Courtois.
I'll also mention though that you should think carefully about whether a super dark, mellow sound is really the best choice for a flugel. I think a more middle of the road sound is more effective in ensemble playing situations. When I've played my Courtois in ensembles, it's always seemed darker and louder than the other flugels, which makes blending more difficult. I still like playing it a lot, but I'm not convinced that a super-dark flugel is the best choice for ensemble work (although it's great for solo work).
If I had it to do over again, I'd choose something with a more middle of the road sound, like maybe a Kanstul or a Yamaha. And I've been very intrigued by the Scodwell flugel, which has a great sound and some unique build characteristics to help with playability and intonation. I'd definitely check that out if I were in the market. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Any idea where in the Northeast U.S. one can try these horns? |
Washington Music Center in DC area (Scodwell dealer), Yamaha Atelier in Manhattan, Sam Ash in Manhattan. In the Boston area is Rayburn Music, Osmun Brass, and Austin Custom Brass. Sounds like time for a road trip to me. Call ahead and see what they have in stock |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5675 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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If I ever get the chance to own a copper belled Kanstul CCF 925 again and I don't have to pay through the nose to get it, I will. It was such a sweet flugel - I wish like heck I'd never sold it. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Existentialist Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 193
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Dillon's has a Calicchio flugelhorn in stock? Did it have a copper bell? How was the intonation? _________________ Adams A9 (medium bore)
Yamaha 8310Z Gen. II
Taylor Chicago Standard II
Inderbinen Wood Flugelhorn
https://crciorba.com/ |
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p.gehres New Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2017 Posts: 8
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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Existentialist wrote: | Dillon's has a Calicchio flugelhorn in stock? Did it have a copper bell? How was the intonation? |
Used: https://www.dillonmusic.com/p-21962-calicchio-flugel.aspx
Intonation was pretty good as I recall. I didn't play it a ton, as its a little pricey, especially as a used horn. _________________ Student, Ithaca College SoM
Bach Stradivarius 180 ML 37 Silver, 713XXX
Bach Stradivarius 180 ML 239 Lacquer, 64XXX
Dillon Flugelhorn Rose Brass Lacquer, 78XXX |
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omelet Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Nov 2007 Posts: 245
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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I have a circa 1980 Getzen 4-valve flugel. I don't know how they are designed nowadays, but it's definitely got more of a trombone sound than any small bore one I've played. Plus, a fourth valve is just great for those pedals. |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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dstdenis wrote: | p.gehres wrote: | I'm definitely looking for a darker, almost trombone-esque sound. |
If you're looking for a flugel with a dark, mellow sound, you should try a Courtois.
I'll also mention though that you should think carefully about whether a super dark, mellow sound is really the best choice for a flugel. I think a more middle of the road sound is more effective in ensemble playing situations. When I've played my Courtois in ensembles, it's always seemed darker and louder than the other flugels, which makes blending more difficult. I still like playing it a lot, but I'm not convinced that a super-dark flugel is the best choice for ensemble work (although it's great for solo work).
If I had it to do over again, I'd choose something with a more middle of the road sound, like maybe a Kanstul or a Yamaha. And I've been very intrigued by the Scodwell flugel, which has a great sound and some unique build characteristics to help with playability and intonation. I'd definitely check that out if I were in the market. |
This! The trombonish sound can be boring. |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3630 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:42 am Post subject: |
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delano wrote: | dstdenis wrote: | p.gehres wrote: | I'm definitely looking for a darker, almost trombone-esque sound. |
If you're looking for a flugel with a dark, mellow sound, you should try a Courtois.
I'll also mention though that you should think carefully about whether a super dark, mellow sound is really the best choice for a flugel. I think a more middle of the road sound is more effective in ensemble playing situations. When I've played my Courtois in ensembles, it's always seemed darker and louder than the other flugels, which makes blending more difficult. I still like playing it a lot, but I'm not convinced that a super-dark flugel is the best choice for ensemble work (although it's great for solo work).
If I had it to do over again, I'd choose something with a more middle of the road sound, like maybe a Kanstul or a Yamaha. And I've been very intrigued by the Scodwell flugel, which has a great sound and some unique build characteristics to help with playability and intonation. I'd definitely check that out if I were in the market. |
This! The trombonish sound can be boring. |
I'd second Courtois as a good choice. They get the correct sound, to my ear. Lots of used ones out there and stay away from the really old ones, condition can be dicey. And it IS really important to have a mouthpiece that matches the horn - flugels are much more mouthpiece-sensitive than trumpets. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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lakejw Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 543 Location: Brooklyn, New York
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Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Re: having retailer send you horns; it's not explicitly a 'trying out' phase, but if you've got the purchasing power on your credit card, you can order some from a big-box retailer such as Sam Ash, and return them within the return window. I have done it at Guitar Center for mics and things, but not with horns, though I know people that have done this. For example trying out multiple new Strads and deciding which they like best.
WHATEVER you do, MAKE SURE the return policy allows it BEFORE you buy. They will ask you what the problem was, just say it didn't meet your needs. And to head off any arguments, I'm not advocating taking advantage of the company, it's their policy, and there's nothing wrong with using it as intended.
Also, Happy Thanksgiving. _________________ New Album "ensemble | in situ" on Bandcamp
johnlakejazz.com |
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B. Scriver Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2002 Posts: 1204 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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GR has gone flugel - crazy in the last while. It may be because one of his all time heroes is Clark Terry, or maybe GR has been logging too many hours at the shop and has lost his mind.
He is currently play testing and measuring the following horns:
Blessing Artist Flugel
Yamaha 731 Flugel
Yamaha 8310Z Flugel
He has two Callet Flugels arriving tomorrow.
He has play tested my Conn Vintage One.
He designed our FD Series mouthpieces to match the V1. He has noticed that the GR FLT mouthpieces match the Yamaha 731 better. He played a super-clean passage for me and at the end, added a real airy phrase. (Impressive because GR doesn't have time to practice.) The FLT allows the player to color the sound and play accurately. He is currently looking at designing a leadpipe to improve the Yamaha.
I will update with his findings on the Callet Flugels. GR has seen a leadpipe from these horns and he is impressed. More to follow.
Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: | delano wrote: | dstdenis wrote: | p.gehres wrote: | I'm definitely looking for a darker, almost trombone-esque sound. |
If you're looking for a flugel with a dark, mellow sound, you should try a Courtois.
I'll also mention though that you should think carefully about whether a super dark, mellow sound is really the best choice for a flugel. I think a more middle of the road sound is more effective in ensemble playing situations. When I've played my Courtois in ensembles, it's always seemed darker and louder than the other flugels, which makes blending more difficult. I still like playing it a lot, but I'm not convinced that a super-dark flugel is the best choice for ensemble work (although it's great for solo work).
If I had it to do over again, I'd choose something with a more middle of the road sound, like maybe a Kanstul or a Yamaha. And I've been very intrigued by the Scodwell flugel, which has a great sound and some unique build characteristics to help with playability and intonation. I'd definitely check that out if I were in the market. |
This! The trombonish sound can be boring. |
I'd second Courtois as a good choice. They get the correct sound, to my ear. Lots of used ones out there and stay away from the really old ones, condition can be dicey. And it IS really important to have a mouthpiece that matches the horn - flugels are much more mouthpiece-sensitive than trumpets. |
FYI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si0ruyD8rqw |
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