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7Trumpets
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Joined: 25 May 2017
Posts: 7
Location: Chicago
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 Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:06 pm Post subject: New Finish on a Martin Committee? |
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Two years ago I bought a '54 Martin Committee and had it stripped to bare brass. Great playing horn. Recently noticed Ambrose Akinmusire's '57 Martin Committee has a brushed look. Does anybody know what he had done? Thinking of possibly getting that "scratch" finish. If I do, should I then have it lacquered? Would that make for a darker sound? Would there be any unwelcome effects from the brushing or the lacquer? Is brush lacquer on a Martin Committee a kind of sacrilege? Appreciate your opinions - especially opinions based on experience.
Thanks!
Barry
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Martin Committee 1954
Connstellation 38B 1966
Schilke B3 |
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Rod Haney
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Joined: 22 Aug 2015
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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The sacrilege would be not to finish a horn you like to play in a way you want to see. It’s your horn and what others think should have no bearing on what you do unless you are looking at a future sale. I personally prefer newer horn but some really like these and others. I see absolutely no future in vintage horns with todays market, only older player have any appreciation for them, and IMO not because of the way they pay, but some do have interesting sound character. Don’t worry about a future sale if you like the horn and are not about try newer horns. I know that Tom Green can do a nice scratch finish or anything else, also heard Charlie Melk is good (great on valves). Do what you want to your horn, bottom is dropping out of vintage anyway (just in time for me to sell my last 6 vintage).
Rod |
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Bflatman
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Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:07 am Post subject: |
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The function of an artwork is to be seen and communicate.
The function of an instrument is to be heard and communicate.
Brushed would look wonderful. |
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VetPsychWars
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 7196
Location: Greenfield WI
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:41 am Post subject: |
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Once you put that ugly finish on, you can't get rid of it. No big deal on a modern horn of which there are plenty, for example Yamaha, but on a more rare horn, it's a kind of sacrilege. I suggest you limit your finishes to what the catalog says was on offer.
That means clear lacquer, silver with gold bell, or gold.
The catalog doesn't say bright or satin silver.
Tom
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1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
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jojocat
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Joined: 08 Dec 2012
Posts: 948
Location: Baie St-Paul, Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Rod Haney wrote: | The sacrilege would be not to finish a horn you like to play in a way you want to see. It’s your horn and what others think should have no bearing on what you do unless you are looking at a future sale. I personally prefer newer horn but some really like these and others. I see absolutely no future in vintage horns with todays market, only older player have any appreciation for them, and IMO not because of the way they pay, but some do have interesting sound character. Don’t worry about a future sale if you like the horn and are not about try newer horns. I know that Tom Green can do a nice scratch finish or anything else, also heard Charlie Melk is good (great on valves). Do what you want to your horn, bottom is dropping out of vintage anyway (just in time for me to sell my last 6 vintage).
Rod |
Wow!Quite a statement here! Just for example, have you listened to Ambroise Akinmusire who makes a fantastic music on a vintage '57 Committee? He has a sound I never heard anywhere else and he don't seems to be handicaped cause he doesn't use a modern horn. Not to mention also Chris Botti with his '39 Handcraft Committee. Choosing a horn is a matter of taste, whatever it's a modern or a vintage horn.
I just recieved a 1936 Handcraft Imperial and I'll never be able to get the sound I get from this horn using any modern trumpet.
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Last edited by jojocat on Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:45 am; edited 2 times in total |
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leahcim
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Joined: 14 Apr 2011
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Rod Haney wrote: | I see absolutely no future in vintage horns with todays market, only older player have any appreciation for them, and IMO not because of the way they pay, but some do have interesting sound character. Do what you want to your horn, bottom is dropping out of vintage anyway (just in time for me to sell my last 6 vintage).
Rod |
Having bought and sold a dozen Committees this can’t be further from the truth. This horn will always be in demand and prices have been steadily increasing the past decade. The same can be said for 38B’s, Mt Vernon Bach’s, Burbank Benge’s, etc. |
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Rod Haney
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Joined: 22 Aug 2015
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| leahcim wrote: | | Rod Haney wrote: | I see absolutely no future in vintage horns with todays market, only older player have any appreciation for them, and IMO not because of the way they pay, but some do have interesting sound character. Do what you want to your horn, bottom is dropping out of vintage anyway (just in time for me to sell my last 6 vintage).
Rod |
Having bought and sold a dozen Committees this can’t be further from the truth. This horn will always be in demand and prices have been steadily increasing the past decade. The same can be said for 38B’s, Mt Vernon Bach’s, Burbank Benge’s, etc. |
I was speaking as a way to make cash. I agree that any one horn can be magic to a player, Eclipse is to me. But I have owned and sold/traded about 40 hi end vintage horns and 5-6 newer horns over the last 2 years, really just trying to find the magic one. I have also progressed in my playing. I was lucky enough to make some really great deals when it all started, buy low sell hi kind of stuff but all fair value to both sides. In the last 8 months I have seen better and better horns selling for less on the forums and marketplaces. I usually don’t sell/trade this way but that’s the way the market seems to be trending.
Although there are gems with each maker no brand or model is wonderful thru the line (and I’ve had 3 martins). Some are better in general but none so good as all that or they would be the only brand. 1 other reason I have this feeling is that I’m 65 and my memories are from horns from the 50’s and 60’s, and there were by far more trumpet players then than now, and guys my age are winding down a bit and won’t lead that vintage drive much longer. I’m already seeing it. And I’m not talking about just collector horns but good horns that play good and look good. I kept the best in my safari but now that I got Eclipse they will probably end up being sold for less than lesser horns did 2 years ago. But I have now found something that puts all others away to me. I had hoped that one of the cheaper vintage would do it for me but it didn’t. They did however pay for a very nice custom horn$$.
So don’t shoot me!!! I earned my opinion .
Rod |
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TKSop
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Joined: 23 Feb 2014
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Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| leahcim wrote: | | Rod Haney wrote: | I see absolutely no future in vintage horns with todays market, only older player have any appreciation for them, and IMO not because of the way they pay, but some do have interesting sound character. Do what you want to your horn, bottom is dropping out of vintage anyway (just in time for me to sell my last 6 vintage).
Rod |
Having bought and sold a dozen Committees this can’t be further from the truth. This horn will always be in demand and prices have been steadily increasing the past decade. The same can be said for 38B’s, Mt Vernon Bach’s, Burbank Benge’s, etc. |
Depends where you are...
Over here (UK) I've seen people struggle to sell 8/10 and 9/10 Mt Vernon 25/37's with pricetags set significantly below what a brand new Bach 25/37 that's a fraction of the horn (IMHO) would sell for... talking 2/3 of the price and less.
38B's seem to get snapped up more quickly, but not for crazy prices. |
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7Trumpets
New Member
Joined: 25 May 2017
Posts: 7
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:18 am Post subject: New Finish |
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Hey All,
Thanks so much for the replies. There is art. There is science. And there is opinion. And it's all helpful.
Especially appreciate Rod's mention of Tom Green, who has been cited many times in these blogs. I had no information on Tom and googled his site. No idea he works out of Elkhart. Wow. Road trip coming.
Thanks again, y'all. Some great options!
B
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Martin Committee 1954
Connstellation 38B 1966
Schilke B3 |
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yourbrass
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Joined: 12 Jun 2011
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Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:45 am Post subject: Re: New Finish |
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| 7Trumpets wrote: | Hey All,
Thanks so much for the replies. There is art. There is science. And there is opinion. And it's all helpful.
Especially appreciate Rod's mention of Tom Green, who has been cited many times in these blogs. I had no information on Tom and googled his site. No idea he works out of Elkhart. Wow. Road trip coming.
Thanks again, y'all. Some great options!
B |
Yeah, Tom just did the finish buffing and lacquering of an old Conn that I overhauled. Very impressive work. And judging by the crazy prices on ebay for Martin Committees, I'd stick with the standard high polish/lacquer finish to maintain the horn's value. Scratch brush finishing w/lacquer inevitably looks shabby as the lacquer wears off, and is impossible to spot lacquer and not have a large color/finish difference. My 2 cents.
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sounds7
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Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 635
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Keep it vintage, you want a pretty horn go buy one.
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47 Martin Committee #3
Buescher lightweight 400 228
Buescher lightweight 400 217
Taylor/Harrelson/MAW
Warburton model 235
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:00 am Post subject: Re: New Finish |
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| 7Trumpets wrote: | Hey All,
Thanks so much for the replies. There is art. There is science. And there is opinion. And it's all helpful.
Especially appreciate Rod's mention of Tom Green, who has been cited many times in these blogs. I had no information on Tom and googled his site. No idea he works out of Elkhart. Wow. Road trip coming.
Thanks again, y'all. Some great options!
B |
+1 for Tom. I had him do a “scratched” with clear lacquer finish on a newer Bach 43, that was originally just standard clear lacquer over polished brass, it came out great. And at least in this case it did not change the sound or it’s playing characteristics at all.
Brad |
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Brent
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Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 1097
Location: St. Paul, MN
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:44 pm Post subject: horns |
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IMO:
The modern Committees, made by Schilke, Adams, etc, sound pretty similar to the vintage horns, but they play a lot more like modern horns. Some people like that, some like how the vintage ones play (looser slotting comes to mind).
I know I'm in the minority, but I also like how the more modern versions play. The vintage Committee I had sounded great, but I struggled with the intonation issues.
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Brent |
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Rod Haney
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Joined: 22 Aug 2015
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: horns |
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| Brent wrote: | IMO:
The modern Committees, made by Schilke, Adams, etc, sound pretty similar to the vintage horns, but they play a lot more like modern horns. Some people like that, some like how the vintage ones play (looser slotting comes to mind).
I know I'm in the minority, but I also like how the more modern versions play. The vintage Committee I had sounded great, but I struggled with the intonation issues. |
I agree with your posting. The Lawler C7 Ive had for 6 months now is a great example of a modern Committee. It’s not like you can rush out and try one of these as Roy is now assisting Bone players. I never understood the Committee sound being any different from any other trumpet I ever played as far as having a different character. It was either a horn I sounded good on or not - not like I shifted to some different sound, mouthpiece selection has a lot more to do with that to me. That’s sound, the way the modern horns play is simply at a different level, more ease, etc.. But for every person there is a magic horn, and for some its the Martin. The ease of play and similar timbre of newer horns will get my money these days. It’s more the player than the horn IMO, and easier iz better. As I’ve said earlier some horns are magic, but the newer copies sound alike IMO and are worlds easier to play - except for the magic ones.
Rod |
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blbaumgarn
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Joined: 26 Jul 2017
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:39 pm Post subject: New finish on a Martin committee |
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| It is your horn to do with as you will. If you had a scratch and laquer finish installed and at some point decided to part with it, there would still be a buyer I bet. My opinion with vintage horns is you have it and it works. If you want to apply a different finish and still use it the vintage piece of musical history is still in someone's possession that really cares about it and the sound it produces. |
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scipioap
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Joined: 08 Aug 2012
Posts: 368
Location: Waltham, MA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:30 am Post subject: |
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To compare value, there's currently a '50s Committee refinished in brushed lacquer for sale by Jacek (hotdeal1smoko on eBay). He bought it from the same seller as my '63 LB Committee, for around $1500 back in July, and there were other bidders. Of course he's been trying to flip it for 3x price, and it's been sitting for four months. The seller was a lady in LA, who acquired both Committees from the same owner - either older relative or estate sale - who had both relacquered by Kanstul - but my LB wasn't brushed. I normally prefer original Martin enamel, but in this case, the relacquer (brushed or not) didn't affect my purchase decision. And given Kanstul, it was done perfectly.
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1963 Martin Committee #3
1962 Martin Committee Cornet #3
1961 Martin Custom Committee C
1941 Martin HC Committee #2
1945 Martin Committee #2
1942 Martin HC Committee Cornet
1941 Martin IBICO Indiana
2012 Kanstul 1525 SLB
1977 Olds CT Flugel |
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Robert Rowe
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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I've had about 50 Committees (believe-it-or-not) ... over 30+ years, or so. Now, "down" to about a dozen. Several #3 bores. HAD a couple rare small-bores, HC's, prototypes, etc.
I guess (?) I have some credence, here.
There are other horns "out there" ... vintage, I must add ... that can do the "Committee thing" (sound, playability, etc.). I can nail the Botti sound, on very overlooked horns. Mouthpieces have the greatest significance. My own "secrets" (mouthpiece favorites) shall remain SECRET.
You folks over-think this horn business. Most of you have waaaay too much time on your hands.
Back to the original post .... my opinion, is -- leave the horn's finish alone. Spend your money and time on other things. Practice more.
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BGinNJ
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Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 380
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:10 am Post subject: |
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It's your horn, do what you like. The raw brass look seems to be "in" these days, even with new, expensive custom horns. Of course, a raw brass then tarnishes and eventually looks like a flea market find.
I had access to a sand blaster for a while, so I stripped a project horn. It looked cool at first, then developed a blotchy patina.
So if it was me, I would lacquer it. |
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