• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Slurring Fluidity



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
VintageFTW
Regular Member


Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Posts: 46
Location: Somewhere in the mountains of North Georgia

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:39 pm    Post subject: Slurring Fluidity Reply with quote

Something I have always wondered is why some people's slurs are more fluid than other's. What I mean by this is some people just jump from one note to another with no sound in between while others, such as myself, have a certain quality to their slurring, almost like the articulation on a rotary trumpet. It's really hard to describe, but if you know what I'm talking about then either you do it yourself or you are familiar with it. Please do make some input on this matter.

Thanks,
VintageFTW
_________________
1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
1922 Holton-Clarke Cornet
1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
...And many more
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Turkle
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 1738
Location: New York City

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want more fluid slurs, then you should practice slurring faster - Bai Lin, Colin, etc.

When I practice flexibility exercises, I often will take them at three tempos:

1) Slow, making sure I "hit" or "grip" every note
2) Fast, aiming for a fluid shape across all the notes
3) Extremely fast, just "skipping" across each note like a stone over a pond

If you do your flex exercises like the above, you'll eventually develop the ability to make your slurs behave however you like.

I hope that the above is helpful.
_________________
'08 Yamaha 8310zs
'62 Connstellation 38B
'64 Connstellation 38A
'94 Bach Strad Bb L 25
'72 Bach Strad Bb ML 37
'72 Bach Strad CML 239
'?? Yamaha YFH-231 Flugel
'38 King Master Cornet
Curry 3.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arbanator
Regular Member


Joined: 08 Oct 2008
Posts: 87
Location: McLean VA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on my teacherís advice, Iíve been trying to correct this by finding within my embouchure the tipping point between two partials, rather like a razor-edged fulcrum for a teeter totter with a partial on each side . I then try to alternate between the two by making minimal adjustments within my mouth. This seems to be smoothing my slurs out, but I am still working to improve.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Billy B
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 5203
Location: Des Moines

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slow down.

Begin with small intervals. i.e. 1/2 steps

Sing the interval.

Play the interval.
_________________
Bill Bergren
Obstacles are what appear when you take your eye off of the goal.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
dstdenis
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 May 2013
Posts: 1824
Location: Atlanta GA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: Slurring Fluidity Reply with quote

VintageFTW wrote:
Something I have always wondered is why some people's slurs are more fluid than other's.

Lots of practice. My first trumpet teacher made a big deal out of learning to do lip slurs cleanly and accurately. He assigned exercises out of Schlossberg's long tones section and taught coordination of lips and tongue level using the right amount of air to make the connection as smooth as possible.

I remember I wanted to jump into the faster, more complicated slurring exercises ASAP, but he wanted to hear me get the simple ones working well first. He had amazing control over his slurs, and I could tell from his demos that I had lots of work to do.

These days I alternate working on slurs out of Schlossberg, Lowell Little, Arban, Irons, Bai Lin and Franquin. Franquin's approach is the most deliberate, with lots of work on simple slurs to get them working well before moving on to the typical exercises (and some crazy difficult ones that I set aside). In his text, he explained why he starts with such easy exercises, basically to ensure a clean, smooth connection across any interval before launching into the busier exercises.
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cheiden
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 6752
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think slurring quality begins with a strong sense of pitch centers. First you have to become super aware of the pitch center so that the embouchure snaps immediately to it. Then perform flexibility exercises with the goal of making the transitions as instantaneous as possible. Folks that do this well sometimes sound a bit like they're lightly tonguing when they slur because it's so sudden. Without this work it's really easy to have sloppy transitions.

FWIW I credit the Stamp method and my teacher, a longtime student of Stamp for helping me make progress in this area.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trumpet56
Veteran Member


Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Posts: 412

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I am practicing slurring I am always listening for the sound between the pitches. Connection is the secret.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VintageFTW
Regular Member


Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Posts: 46
Location: Somewhere in the mountains of North Georgia

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops. Let me clarify. I wasn't asking HOW to make my slurs more fluid, because I'm not lacking in that department. What I was asking is why some people have very smooth, fluidly connected slurs while others have slurs akin to pressing down a valve. From what I have seen, some people have this as a natural trait while some don't. Why is that?

*EDIT: That sound between the pitches, that's what I'm talking about! Some people seem to have this sound while others have no sound between pitches. Why?

*RE-EDIT: When I refer to the sound, I don't mean bad slurring. In fact, having this trait seems to be most desirable. It makes lyrical playing more lyrical, and other playing flow better.
_________________
1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
1922 Holton-Clarke Cornet
1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
...And many more
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ed Kennedy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 2138

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet56 wrote:
When I am practicing slurring I am always listening for the sound between the pitches. Connection is the secret.


+1 I find that practicing skurs as slow glissandos on the mouthpiece is helpful. It encourages constant airflow through the slur as well as buzzing the right pitch on the notes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trumpet56
Veteran Member


Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Posts: 412

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*EDIT: That sound between the pitches, that's what I'm talking about! Some people seem to have this sound while others have no sound between pitches. Why?

That's very difficult to question to answer. This sound happens between the notes when I experience my slurring and overall performance at its most connected and flexible. To accomplish this I need to be playing in the "sweet spot" (center) of each note

My own conclusion is that the vibrating air column contains the overtones of both pitches. My teacher once said, "play through the ends of your notes". This concept took quite a long time to experience. Kind of Zen like.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Craig Swartz
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 7429
Location: Des Moines, IA area

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you referring to slurring as in scale or melodic passages??? I didn't see a reference to "lip trilling, just slurring...)

Most of the problems encountered in such passages are from a lack of a constant and steady pulse causing some notes within to be uneven. Taking any of the Clarke Tech exercises, for example: I always advocate setting a metronome for an eighth note pulse rather than quarter note and start slower than one believes is necessary. This will point out the minute rushing/dragging that happens between more difficult fingering passages. I also advocate single tonguing the exercise with the eighth note pulse- the tongue gernerally operates in a fairly strict rhythmic pattern because there are no difficult fingerings for it to negotiate. Using either/both methods, the hang-ups that can cause a "lack of fluidity" are usually obvious, Then, of course the player must now take the time to work them out... From the teacher standpoint, that's often the tough part. Good luck.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Rod Haney
Veteran Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 376

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Slurring Fluidity Reply with quote

oops
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Rod Haney
Veteran Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 376

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VintageFTW wrote:
Oops. Let me clarify. I wasn't asking HOW to make my slurs more fluid, because I'm not lacking in that department. What I was asking is why some people have very smooth, fluidly connected slurs while others have slurs akin to pressing down a valve. From what I have seen, some people have this as a natural trait while some don't. Why is that?

*EDIT: That sound between the pitches, that's what I'm talking about! Some people seem to have this sound while others have no sound between pitches. Why?

*RE-EDIT: When I refer to the sound, I don't mean bad slurring. In fact, having this trait seems to be most desirable. It makes lyrical playing more lyrical, and other playing flow better.


because
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
razeontherock
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10373
Location: The land of GR and Getzen

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my own playing, I see examples of both. Totally mouthpiece dependant.

On my best high note / lead mpc there is a slightly wider, flatter rim, and that precise "click" as I cross a partial, attempting a smooth slur. No matter what I do. I can pull my hair out practicing and worrying this to death, to no avail.

On a more standard rim I can attempt the same goal but with FAR less effort, and slur like butter. Fortunately for me, any situation that pays me for playing where I really need my lead mpc., I don't actually need to slur smoothly. Even though I'd like to be able to. I have yet to find the magic mpc that lets me do it all; I find every mpc is a compromise.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 8886
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: Slurring Fluidity Reply with quote

VintageFTW wrote:
Something I have always wondered is why some people's slurs are more fluid than other's. What I mean by this is some people just jump from one note to another with no sound in between while others, such as myself, have a certain quality to their slurring, almost like the articulation on a rotary trumpet. It's really hard to describe, but if you know what I'm talking about then either you do it yourself or you are familiar with it. Please do make some input on this matter.

Thanks,
VintageFTW


I know exactly what you are talking about and I help my students overcome this all the time. And I like your use of the word "fluidity" - it's a good descriptor for what you are writing about.

Those with good fluidity in their flexibilities and/or slurs are employing proper tongue arch. Those who have a rather harsh transition between notes in flexibility exercises are not arching their tongues up and forward enough.

If you care to get together for a few minutes via Skype I'd be happy to help you with this and show you the difference in how smooth flexibilities are with proper tongue arch compared to having the tongue too flat in the mouth. Just click on the e-mail button down below (no charge for a one-time-get-together - Merry Christmas and/or Happy Hanukkah!).

If you don't have a webcam, a real good one is available for just $54 (it's the one I use to give Skype Lessons):

https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Widescreen-Calling-Recording-Desktop/dp/B006JH8T3S

Cheers,

John Mohan
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, Color Purple, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group