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Pivot?



 
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spyke
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:47 pm    Post subject: Pivot? Reply with quote

To pivot, or not to pivot, that is the question.

I'm a Stamp guy, and re-reading Roy Poper's companion book, and was surprised to see a pivot advocated.

I'm currently trying to play a lot more constantly and efficiently and have not been pivoting. Do you pivot?
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MrOlds
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Reinhardt forum has lots of interesting info on the subject of pivot. There’s much more to it than where the bell points.

Never hurts to cross pollinate with input from multiple schools of thought.
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take2
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What does Poper say a pivot is?
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spyke
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What does Poper say a pivot is?



Quote:
"The Natural Pivot: Most players will find that the angle of the instrument will change from high to low and vice-versa. This is normal. When beginning on a low note and ascending, the bell should begin in the high position and travel down as you ascend. The opposite will be true when beginning on a higher note and traveling downward. This is called the "pivot." Be sure to keep your left hand relaxed enough to allow this action. See page 24 of this book for some Arban exercises in this technique."


Page 24 has got some slur-two, tounge-two arpeggios that move between different inversions. He instructs players to not exaggerate the motion.

It's not made clear what it's supposed to do or what the benefit is, and is instead presented just as a thing that happens.
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pivot. I do not pivot to create something I pivot as a reaction to something. This means it is a byproduct of the natural change in jaw position in different registers. I do not think about it, I do not pay attention to it or worry about it. It, like certain bodily functions, simply happens and I am at peace with it. Best, Jon
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here at 7:24 in you can see Doc and his Pivot.




Link

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spyke
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could a lack of any pivot be considered a cause for concern?
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spyke wrote:
Could a lack of any pivot be considered a cause for concern?


If you're forcing yourself into a no-pivot situation and there are negative consequences, I would say it's a cause for concern.

If you're not actively trying to not pivot and there is nothing to suggest it's a problem, I wouldn't be concerned.

Also bear in mind there are different ideas about what "pivot" is.

Reinhardt described it in relation to what the embouchure is doing. Even when the horn isn't discernably changing angle, this pivot is occurring. I think I read somewhere he later thought 'pivot' wasn't the best term for it, but by then it had stuck. Maybe Rich (beboppinfool) can chime in on this.

Monette considers pivoting to be the action of lifting or lowering the head while playing and views it as compensation one does to force the sharp low and flat high registers in tune. This is not the embouchure action Reinhardt described.

Both are described as pivot and are clearly targeted at different aspects of playing.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everybody pivots to some degree. Your pivot might be very small though.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon nailed it in his first post- the "pivot" is merely the mouthpiece rim following minute changes in lip/jaw/tongue positions/formations as we change pitches and registers. No change would equal no, or little difference in pitch since the partial changes are controlled here. Very slight, almost impreceptical differences for narrow intervals, more change for octaves and wider ones.

If you need an example, rip through Colin #14 (p 11 in my old book) as fast as you can (say, sixteenths at quarter note = 132 or faster) and see how your embouchure reacts to the quick changes. It is the reaction to the changes that causes the horn to "pivot".
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spyke wrote:
Could a lack of any pivot be considered a cause for concern?


No. Absolutely not. If you practice a well-balanced routine correctly, things such as the amount of pivot (if any) will sort themselves out with time and practice. A good, experienced teacher is essential to make sure you practice the correct material and that you practice it correctly. It's not an accident that the word practice will appear five times in this message.

Best wishes,

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Pops
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spyke wrote:
Could a lack of any pivot be considered a cause for concern?


A Horrible sound is a cause for concern.

How we LOOK when we play is NOT.
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think most of us use more movement then is necessary. This is easy to correct once we are able to identify the excess movement and try to minimize it. When we started out we discovered that we could pivot and get a low note and it worked great. As we got better we didn't need so much pivot but we continued to use it although it was detrimental to our playing.
Finding the excess movement is simple. Slur from G down to C as you naturally do. Notice how much you pivot (dropping the jaw). See if you can make the same slur without that degree of movement. If the bottom note is a bit on top (out of center) then you are doing it correctly. With our excess pivot we tend to scoop the low notes from underneath. Listen to yourself and see if you do this. If you hear the scooping it is a result of too much pivot.

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MF Fan
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suggest you re-post your question in the Reinhardt forum if you want to have an informed discussion. Choosing to intentionally tilt your horn up or down for high or low notes isn't pivoting as far as the Reinhardt method teaches. A true pivot refers to the track your mouthpiece naturally moves, along with the aperture of your embouchure, across your teeth/gums when changing registers. The track of a pivot might include some horizontal movement as well. A person's pivot may or may not result in vertical movement of the bell of the horn, though generally speaking as a pivot occurs upward vertically the bell of the horn tends to move downward, it's simple geometry, a fulcrum if you will. Jon has it right, a pivot isn't simply deciding to move the angle of the horn when you move across registers, but is the result of what your chops are doing. Many people think the Reinhardt approach is overly analytical, but discovering how to play in a way that is in harmony with your unique physical attributes can make the difference between a good and great player. Working with a qualified Reinhardt taught instructor is critical. There's so many misconceptions out there that it's easy to get pointed in the wrong direction.
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