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Transition from cornet to trumpet.



 
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Stanislav234
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:03 am    Post subject: Transition from cornet to trumpet. Reply with quote

Is there any people who have been playing cornet exclusively and then decided to switch to the trumpet? Today i have finally bought a trumpet (old japanese one called Nikkan NO.2) and Bach 7C mouthpiece. So, when i first time tried to play i was shocked about how everything is changed: my flexibility, range, endurance and tone are suffered a lot. All my playing felt really unstable because of no sense of "sweet spot" i've developed on cornet. Generally, all of this gave me experience of strong boundary between me and instrument.

I think i should temporarily give higher priority to long tones to adapt my embouchure to new instrument and mouthpiece. What are your suggestions?

P.S. If you have any experience with Nikkan trumpets, i'll be happy to hear your thoughts about them. There almost no information in the internet.
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there any reason that you didn't get a trumpet mouthpiece with the same rim profile as your cornet mouthpiece? I would think that that would ease in the transition.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There may be a big difference in the two particular instruments (cornet and trumpet) and mouthpieces you own. What model cornet and cornet mouthpiece have you been playing? Nikkan trumpets were an early '60s effort at manufacturing trumpets in Japan, built loosely under Yamaha supervision before Yamaha began building brass instruments. That said, the trumpet you have may not be the best quality and may not play well. There shouldn't be a huge difference in the effort required to play trumpet or cornet. I'm guessing that either that particular trumpet or the 7C mouthpiece (or both) don't agree with you.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:43 am    Post subject: Re: Transition from cornet to trumpet. Reply with quote

Stanislav234 wrote:
Is there any people who have been playing cornet exclusively and then decided to switch to the trumpet? Today i have finally bought a trumpet (old japanese one called Nikkan NO.2) and Bach 7C mouthpiece. So, when i first time tried to play i was shocked about how everything is changed: my flexibility, range, endurance and tone are suffered a lot. All my playing felt really unstable because of no sense of "sweet spot" i've developed on cornet. Generally, all of this gave me experience of strong boundary between me and instrument.

I think i should temporarily give higher priority to long tones to adapt my embouchure to new instrument and mouthpiece. What are your suggestions?

P.S. If you have any experience with Nikkan trumpets, i'll be happy to hear your thoughts about them. There almost no information in the internet.


Short version:
This trumpet of yours - how about the quality? Some trumpets sound very tinny....could have enormous resistance, no resonance at, all requiring "eons" of air. What kind of mouthpiece do you use with the cornet? Same?
Gap? Rim? Backbore? You name it....
Necessay to ask because I have the same endurance on both horns, range on the trumpet somewhat extended (easier high register), tonal quality etc OK provided I use the same mouthpiece (virtually the same, Wick Ultra 7 C).
Never heard of Nikkan trumpets.

Long version:
Cornet (as in brass band) is my main instrument but the last couple of years Ive been given the privilege of playing a whole lot more trumpet, in big bands, like I did back in the seventies. Nevertheless, my main practice horn is the cornet. But these horns are not that easily swapped!

In my opinion cornet playing requires a another way of playing than the trumpet. Of course this depends a whole lot on what type of music were talking about. I would not use a cornet to play lead in a big band. If forced to then I would choose a brighter one, mouthpiece Bach (in my case 1 1/4) but the way of blowing should differ a lot from the way I play in my regular cornet band, a brass band. The main differences coming to my mind as of right now are: 1)different attacks (big band more forceful, making the horn sound trumpet compared to the sax section whereas in the brass band softer attack, making the cornet blend with the sax - horns/baritones/euphoniums etc, smoother, not that much "overtones" 2)articulation a little further back in my oral cavity, sort of whereas trumpet acticulation more forward (this is difficult to describe, maybe more of a sensation). Perhaps I could say that the oral cavity as a whole might be used as a resonance chamber, more so playing cornet, more "dolce", more singing style? Not that "broad" as the trumpet, rounder. If I dare to use an analogoy, circular sound on cornet, square on trumpet.(Of course one can strive to make the trumpet sound like that too, again, the setting).
These are very subtle variables, besides that what comes to my mind; others players might describe the differences in other ways; from what Ive gathered here on the TH some might even advocate theres no difference at all...

So much for that. But: what you describe seems odd. If I go for it I can make my trumpet sound cornetish, using a deep mouthpiece, articulating the cornet way - and vice versa. Minding the differences. You mention the "sweet spot" - that I can relate to! As I am more used to cornet playing I do find that "spot" more easily on the cornet - a truly psycho-physiological
thing.

Sorry for my rambling.
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Stanislav234
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
There may be a big difference in the two particular instruments (cornet and trumpet) and mouthpieces you own. What model cornet and cornet mouthpiece have you been playing? Nikkan trumpets were an early '60s effort at manufacturing trumpets in Japan, built loosely under Yamaha supervision before Yamaha began building brass instruments. That said, the trumpet you have may not be the best quality and may not play well. There shouldn't be a huge difference in the effort required to play trumpet or cornet. I'm guessing that either that particular trumpet or the 7C mouthpiece (or both) don't agree with you.


I've been playing some no-name chinese cornet with Dennis Wick 7C (maybe fake one) mouthpiece. Mouthpiece on my trumpet seems quite deeper and has more thin and soft edges, but feels thicker at the same time.

Oh, there is a quite lot more effort in playing this trumpet. But i think it's because of this particular instrument that feels pretty "heavy" in playing.

Thank you for your explanation about Nikkan. Have you ever heard their sound?
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Stanislav234
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor, thank you for reply! On my cornet i use 7C Wick mouthpiece, but not the "ultra" one. And Bach 7C on trumpet.

Also thanks for extended message about trumpet/cornet difference, you described a lot of interesting things.
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comebackcornet
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a cornet player. The more I play my trumpet(s), the more they sound like my cornet - or the more they sound like "me". I'm sure they project differently, but up close they all sound pretty close to me.
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stanislav234 wrote:
Seymor, thank you for reply! On my cornet i use 7C Wick mouthpiece, but not the "ultra" one. And Bach 7C on trumpet.

Also thanks for extended message about trumpet/cornet difference, you described a lot of interesting things.


I've never seen a Wick 7, but Wick sizes don't generally line up at all with Bach. Still, I think there must be a typo, because a quick look at the Wick website doesn't even list a 7 size, other than for a French horn.
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trumpet56
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I grew up from the age of 7 to 18 playing the cornet exclusively in Brass Bands so when I swapped over to the trumpet I still sounded like a cornet player. My point is the sound you make on either the cornet or the trumpet is inside your head. That's not to say that different equipment, for example the mouthpiece doesn't help, but you need a different sound concept on both instruments.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet56 wrote:
I grew up from the age of 7 to 18 playing the cornet exclusively in Brass Bands so when I swapped over to the trumpet I still sounded like a cornet player. My point is the sound you make on either the cornet or the trumpet is inside your head. That's not to say that different equipment, for example the mouthpiece doesn't help, but you need a different sound concept on both instruments.
'


+1! I can relate to your post. Me too, growing up in a brass band (15 - 27). When I began playing trumpet, in "not brass bands" I was frequently told that I sounded like a cornet player. Took me some time to adopt big band trumpet style. So to say. Inside your head is what I meant with psycho-physiological. Resulting in, as you write, a different sound concept. Or attitude.
However our experiences does not seem to explain the OP:s problem.
Probably horn&mouthpiece related, as Dale Proctor writes.
Writing this I suddenly remember my first cornet, a Czech contraption, heavy as if made by lead. For a full year I practiced til my eyeballs threathened to pop out, but in vain. Turned out the damned thing had a difficult to find leakage
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Stanislav234
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So here is an update. Now my mouthpiece feels pretty well after two days of long tones, Clarke and Colin's flexibilities. I think i've started to worry too early.

And for people who never heard about this Nikkan trumpet i can say it sounds pretty good and has very pleasant and vibrant tone. The man from whom i've bought this one said that Nikkan is quite underrated instruments and their sound can be compared to vintage Olds Ambassador models.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stanislav234 wrote:
...The man from whom i've bought this one said that Nikkan is quite underrated instruments and their sound can be compared to vintage Olds Ambassador models.


That's too bad...

Seriously, though, glad it seems to be working out for you.
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trumpet56
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
trumpet56 wrote:
I grew up from the age of 7 to 18 playing the cornet exclusively in Brass Bands so when I swapped over to the trumpet I still sounded like a cornet player. My point is the sound you make on either the cornet or the trumpet is inside your head. That's not to say that different equipment, for example the mouthpiece doesn't help, but you need a different sound concept on both instruments.
'


+1! I can relate to your post. Me too, growing up in a brass band (15 - 27). When I began playing trumpet, in "not brass bands" I was frequently told that I sounded like a cornet player. Took me some time to adopt big band trumpet style. So to say. Inside your head is what I meant with psycho-physiological. Resulting in, as you write, a different sound concept. Or attitude.
However our experiences does not seem to explain the OP:s problem.
Probably horn&mouthpiece related, as Dale Proctor writes.
Writing this I suddenly remember my first cornet, a Czech contraption, heavy as if made by lead. For a full year I practiced til my eyeballs threathened to pop out, but in vain. Turned out the damned thing had a difficult to find leakage


Now that I've retired from the Orchestra I am back to playing Cornet again. This time its Soprano arrrrrrrgh......

My point for the Op was that its not only the gear you use that's important, although a Wick 2 helps, but a combination of sound concept as well. Listening to the masters on both instruments helped me a lot!
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet56 wrote:
Seymor B Fudd wrote:
trumpet56 wrote:
I grew up from the age of 7 to 18 playing the cornet exclusively in Brass Bands so when I swapped over to the trumpet I still sounded like a cornet player. My point is the sound you make on either the cornet or the trumpet is inside your head. That's not to say that different equipment, for example the mouthpiece doesn't help, but you need a different sound concept on both instruments.
'


+1! I can relate to your post. Me too, growing up in a brass band (15 - 27). When I began playing trumpet, in "not brass bands" I was frequently told that I sounded like a cornet player. Took me some time to adopt big band trumpet style. So to say. Inside your head is what I meant with psycho-physiological. Resulting in, as you write, a different sound concept. Or attitude.
However our experiences does not seem to explain the OP:s problem.
Probably horn&mouthpiece related, as Dale Proctor writes.
Writing this I suddenly remember my first cornet, a Czech contraption, heavy as if made by lead. For a full year I practiced til my eyeballs threathened to pop out, but in vain. Turned out the damned thing had a difficult to find leakage


Now that I've retired from the Orchestra I am back to playing Cornet again. This time its Soprano arrrrrrrgh......

My point for the Op was that its not only the gear you use that's important, although a Wick 2 helps, but a combination of sound concept as well. Listening to the masters on both instruments helped me a lot!


Guess my talk of eyeballs popping out made you think of the soprano......(been there done that ).
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Bulgakov
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this article quite illuminating. It is written by a teacher with experience in both, and I was quite taken by this quote:

"I always had this idea in my head that switching between the two instruments was a problem because they felt different and like many people I followed the advice of the local dealer and bought a mouthpiece for my trumpet that was the same as the one I use on my cornet. That was a big mistake. Firstly, the two instruments feel different because they are different; secondly, by using a mouthpiece on one that was designed for the other you are going to achieve the effect of neither; and thirdly, the difference is a good thing! It would be so much more confusing for them to feel the same but behave differently. I think that the problem lies in the expectation of being able to do the same thing with tools that were designed for different purposes. "

Here is a link to the full article. I'd be curious what others think.

http://trumpetpla.net/2017/01/22/trumpet-vs-cornet/
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bulgakov wrote:
I found this article quite illuminating. It is written by a teacher with experience in both, and I was quite taken by this quote:

"I always had this idea in my head that switching between the two instruments was a problem because they felt different and like many people I followed the advice of the local dealer and bought a mouthpiece for my trumpet that was the same as the one I use on my cornet. That was a big mistake. Firstly, the two instruments feel different because they are different; secondly, by using a mouthpiece on one that was designed for the other you are going to achieve the effect of neither; and thirdly, the difference is a good thing! It would be so much more confusing for them to feel the same but behave differently. I think that the problem lies in the expectation of being able to do the same thing with tools that were designed for different purposes. "

Here is a link to the full article. I'd be curious what others think.

http://trumpetpla.net/2017/01/22/trumpet-vs-cornet/


Oh dear this is exactly what Ive been looking for. Thanks a lot for providing this! Most valuable read on the topic so far.
Personally I have been critical of these standard Wicks for a very long time - fluffy sound, extremely taxing in high register. The Ultra I found at last seems to be a good compromise. The Heritage series better than the standard series but I prefer the Ultra. The advantage for me having an Ultra for the trumpet also is the identical rim. I could have used the American Classic series as well, same rim, "more trumpetish" sound. Switching beteween the two horns - to me the same kind of rim is the number one factor. My own specific dilemma switching horns is the big difference in registers as I play lead in big bands, really the opposite of playing cornet in a brass band.
I began using a Salvation Army nr 1 mouthpiece, this was the time when men were men women women and horses horses. Today I cannot use it mostly because of 1)too small diamater 2)too flat rim.
But they were well suited to the brass bands of that time.
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Getzen 300 series
Getzen Eterna Eb Schilke VB/Mount Vernon 1 1/2 C
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bulgakov wrote:
...Here is a link to the full article. I'd be curious what others think.

http://trumpetpla.net/2017/01/22/trumpet-vs-cornet/


Nice article. He seems to be a proponent of playing cornet on a 19th century style mouthpiece, though, which really limits where you'd want to use a cornet in this day and age.

I'll disagree with his assessment of the Wick Heritage cornet mouthpiece. While the outer shape may mimic a 19th century cornet mouthpiece, the rim, cup, throat, backbore, etc. are all the same spec as the standard Wick cornet mouthpiece with the same designation. They may play (or provide feedback) a bit differently due to the different distribution of mass, but that's about all.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bulgakov wrote:
"I always had this idea in my head that switching between the two instruments was a problem because they felt different and like many people I followed the advice of the local dealer and bought a mouthpiece for my trumpet that was the same as the one I use on my cornet. That was a big mistake..."

When I hear people recommending the same mouthpiece for different types of horns I always assume that they are referring to the rim ID and shape only. I understand that the cup/throat/backbore/shank need to be optimized for the horn (picc, flugel, cornet, Eb...) in question.
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