Mouthpiece progression

[Thatoneguy]

I normally play with a 7c and have progressed reasonably far in my opinion. A lot of people suggest going to a 5c or even a 3c but on those I feel are just a tad too big to play high comfortably. Should I still pick them up and get used to them, as I am just making too much of a deal out of this or is this just indicative that I have a ways to go before moving to a different mouthpiece.

[brassmusician]

No reason to move off your 7C if it is working well. Focus on improving your capabilities on that piece. I played on the bach 7c that came with my horn through high school and college and played professionally. I never thought once about using a different mouthpiece, nor did any of my teachers suggest something different. Many years later I seem to spend too much time fussing about the right mouthpiece and not enough time practicing - I blame trumpetherald

[JVL]

hello
pay attention to your ease, sound, and feeling. Not to the dogmatic people "bigger better, from 7C to 1, or better to -20 )
Why not a double blind test to throw to the rabbish those dogmas? you'll pay attention then to the results and the comfort !
if you're ok with your mpc, just practice smart until some time, this same mpc would limit you.
best

[HERMOKIWI]

There seems to be a concept that there is a certain "progression" to mouthpieces. Typically the concept aligns with what you've alluded to: Moving from a 7C to a 5C or 3C. I've been playing for 57 years and that concept was prevalent even back when I started playing in 1960. I don't know when or where that concept got started but it is by no means a hard and fast rule in practical application.

You want to use the mouthpiece that gives you the best results, that is, the results you feel are the best for you. Keep in mind that no mouthpiece is everything at once, they are all compromises/trade-offs in one or more ways.

You ought to have a good reason to switch mouthpieces other than someone saying that's what you're supposed to do as some sort of fixed, customary or recommended mouthpiece "progression." There should always be some objective you're trying to obtain by switching so that you have a standard to which you can compare your results to evaluate whether and to what extent the change enabled you to reach your objectives.

The fact that trumpets tend to come with a 7C mouthpiece has created the stigma that a 7C is a "beginner's mouthpiece." There are a lot of great players who play a 7C. There are a lot of great players who play a 5C. There are a lot of great players who play a 3C. There are a lot of great players playing a wide range of mouthpieces that aren't 7C or 5C or 3C.

The important thing is to try to match your mouthpiece to your objectives in terms of sound and playability. In order to match your mouthpiece to your objectives in terms of sound and playability you have to formulate those objectives. Formulating those objectives is the most important part of mouthpiece selection.
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HERMOKIWI

[GordonH]

Another way to look at this is your concept of sound. I found moving to deeper mouthpieces was more helpful at getting me the sound I wanted. If the 7C size of mouthpiece suits you but you want a brighter or darker tone you can get a shallower or deeper mouthpiece.
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Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

[GordonH]

By the way, I think where this upsizing thing comes from is that a lot of people don't get on with the 7C rim. I know that I found it had too much bite and was hampering my progress a bit. A 5C worked better for me when I was at that stage. If 7C is working for you then that's fine just stick with it.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

[zaferis]

I think it's more about finding a mouthpiece that works the best for you. We start on a mouthpiece that is typically middle of the road, medium in diameter and depth - a good place to start.

Now that you've played for several years, developed some skills and some embouchure strength, we begin to look for a mouthpiece that fits you, affording you more control, flexibility, and a tone that coordinates not only with what kind of music you're drawn to but also with the characteristics of your "voice" and needs.

Often the first step is toward a slightly larger diameter, then maybe different rim shapes and cup variations.
It's quite possible that you take the "Safari" and end back where you start.

Then the next complication is changes in our performance needs and instrument variations. We get spurred to search for that better setup as we add another trumpet (i.e. C trpt or picc) or performance requirements suggest. (i.e. endurance issues, wedding band vs. orchestra)

Of course, as we age, things change.. not only in what our needs are but our physique/structure-muscular, dental, weight, etc, all affecting mouthpiece afffect.

I like to have the same rim (feel) on all my trumpets but want different setups on each of them: 2 Bb's, C, D/Eb, picc, Bb & Eb Cornet, Flugehorn. That's 8 different instruments, 1 rim shape/size, 8+ different cup and backbore combos.
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[Seymor B Fudd]

[trickg]

One of the worst things I did in HS was to switch off of my 7C mouthpiece because of some misguided belief that I somehow needed to "progress" to something else, as if the 7C was a beginners mouthpiece. I didn't know what I was doing when it came to transitioning from one mouthpiece to the other, or even what I thought I was trying to get out of the switch, but I did it because I thought I was supposed to. Don't fall into that trap.



As others have said, 7C is just a size, and if it's working, don't mess with it.
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Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[kehaulani]

[BobD]

How does the Denis Wick Ultra 7C compare to a modern Bach 7C. I have been playing a Shew Jazz and a Yamaha 14B4-GP but every time I play my Bach 7C it blows really free with a good sound and while I actually like the width of the rim I don't really like the sharpness.
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Adams/ACB collaborative
Yamaha Shew Jazz and Bach 7C

[John Mohan]

If you're having good results there's no reason to switch. It's interesting that you think a 3C feels too big for you, when in fact, the cup diameter of a 3C is almost identical to the cup diameter of a 7C and the 3C is much shallower. Overall a 3C has less cup volume and with its shallower, more V-shaped cup, for most players, is easier to play high notes on. I remember being a kid in fifth or sixth grade and being told that a 3C was a mouthpiece to move to when one was "strong enough to handle it". Ironically, the mouthpiece that came with my horn was a Reynolds 7A (copy of the extremely deep Bach 7A) - so moving to the relatively shallow 3C should have felt easier - yet I imagined it was harder (but better sounding, which in retrospect, is debatable). Like me back then, I think it's a state of mind making you think the 3C is harder to play high notes on.


https://s25.postimg.org/tcrl51l4f/Bach_3_C_red_vs_Bach_7_C_green.jpg
Bach 3C (red) vs Bach 7C (green)

Best wishes,

John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
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Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student

[trickg]

[Seymor B Fudd]

[GordonH]

Yamaha used to make an 11C4 which they marked as 11C4-7C! It was different to a 7C though, more comfortable. I used one on piccolo trumpet at one time.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

[Andy Del]

The whole notion of 'progression' strikes me as a fallacy. It implies that there are mouthpieces we start on that become less useable in time, and we then move in a set way to the next one. Sort of like moving up in size for string instruments.

The difference is that for a strings instrument, our physical size has a direct correlation to the instrument size. Our lips are not that different in size we move from childhood to adult.

Wouldn't it be far better to pick a general size which works well, and then as the player progresses, they can fine tune their needs and possibly move to a mouthpiece which better suits their needs?

What we do at our school is plonk a 1 1/2C mouthpiece in every trumpet. a 6 1/2AL in every trombone. Similar for horn and tuba... and euphonium.

Most kids don't need to change, but some do and of those, I reckon there have been a half dozen over the years. Those who went on to study music invariably changed mouthpieces in weeks of starting their course and then went on a safari for next few years, but couldn't say WHY they changed anything in the first place or that they agreed with their college teacher!

And those who arrive already playing? Don't change unless there is a clear need. I have kids on 3C, 5C, 1X, 2C and a 2 1/2C, plus some larger Yamahas and one on a Laskey. (I did give that to her, as she had this awful Tiltz 'jazz' mouthpiece. Nasty.)

To me it shows a few things.

1. A 7C mouthpiece isn't all that great in general, seeing as so many move away from it. Start elsewhere, and you can pretty well stay put.

2. Development isn't in the mouthpiece, it is in the player. Who uses different golf clubs because they got 'better'? Or bowl with a different cricket ball now they can spin? Learn to blow, swing or bowl better!

3. Less focus on gear is a good thing. It allows one to put more energy into what is important, the music.

cheers

Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes...

[BobD]

[dstdenis]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi

[cheiden]

The Bach 7C is relatively uncomfortable for a lot of players. I think this helps fuel the notion that players need to progress away from it. When I want a piece that size I go to the Yamaha 11B4 or 11C4.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[Andy Del]