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Thatoneguy New Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2017 Posts: 10
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:43 pm Post subject: Mouthpiece progression |
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I normally play with a 7c and have progressed reasonably far in my opinion. A lot of people suggest going to a 5c or even a 3c but on those I feel are just a tad too big to play high comfortably. Should I still pick them up and get used to them, as I am just making too much of a deal out of this or is this just indicative that I have a ways to go before moving to a different mouthpiece. |
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brassmusician Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2016 Posts: 273
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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No reason to move off your 7C if it is working well. Focus on improving your capabilities on that piece. I played on the bach 7c that came with my horn through high school and college and played professionally. I never thought once about using a different mouthpiece, nor did any of my teachers suggest something different. Many years later I seem to spend too much time fussing about the right mouthpiece and not enough time practicing - I blame trumpetherald |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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hello
pay attention to your ease, sound, and feeling. Not to the dogmatic people "bigger better, from 7C to 1, or better to -20 )
Why not a double blind test to throw to the rabbish those dogmas? you'll pay attention then to the results and the comfort !
if you're ok with your mpc, just practice smart until some time, this same mpc would limit you.
best |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:26 am Post subject: |
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There seems to be a concept that there is a certain "progression" to mouthpieces. Typically the concept aligns with what you've alluded to: Moving from a 7C to a 5C or 3C. I've been playing for 57 years and that concept was prevalent even back when I started playing in 1960. I don't know when or where that concept got started but it is by no means a hard and fast rule in practical application.
You want to use the mouthpiece that gives you the best results, that is, the results you feel are the best for you. Keep in mind that no mouthpiece is everything at once, they are all compromises/trade-offs in one or more ways.
You ought to have a good reason to switch mouthpieces other than someone saying that's what you're supposed to do as some sort of fixed, customary or recommended mouthpiece "progression." There should always be some objective you're trying to obtain by switching so that you have a standard to which you can compare your results to evaluate whether and to what extent the change enabled you to reach your objectives.
The fact that trumpets tend to come with a 7C mouthpiece has created the stigma that a 7C is a "beginner's mouthpiece." There are a lot of great players who play a 7C. There are a lot of great players who play a 5C. There are a lot of great players who play a 3C. There are a lot of great players playing a wide range of mouthpieces that aren't 7C or 5C or 3C.
The important thing is to try to match your mouthpiece to your objectives in terms of sound and playability. In order to match your mouthpiece to your objectives in terms of sound and playability you have to formulate those objectives. Formulating those objectives is the most important part of mouthpiece selection. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:56 am Post subject: |
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Another way to look at this is your concept of sound. I found moving to deeper mouthpieces was more helpful at getting me the sound I wanted. If the 7C size of mouthpiece suits you but you want a brighter or darker tone you can get a shallower or deeper mouthpiece. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:58 am Post subject: |
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By the way, I think where this upsizing thing comes from is that a lot of people don't get on with the 7C rim. I know that I found it had too much bite and was hampering my progress a bit. A 5C worked better for me when I was at that stage. If 7C is working for you then that's fine just stick with it. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2317 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:22 am Post subject: |
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I think it's more about finding a mouthpiece that works the best for you. We start on a mouthpiece that is typically middle of the road, medium in diameter and depth - a good place to start.
Now that you've played for several years, developed some skills and some embouchure strength, we begin to look for a mouthpiece that fits you, affording you more control, flexibility, and a tone that coordinates not only with what kind of music you're drawn to but also with the characteristics of your "voice" and needs.
Often the first step is toward a slightly larger diameter, then maybe different rim shapes and cup variations.
It's quite possible that you take the "Safari" and end back where you start.
Then the next complication is changes in our performance needs and instrument variations. We get spurred to search for that better setup as we add another trumpet (i.e. C trpt or picc) or performance requirements suggest. (i.e. endurance issues, wedding band vs. orchestra)
Of course, as we age, things change.. not only in what our needs are but our physique/structure-muscular, dental, weight, etc, all affecting mouthpiece afffect.
I like to have the same rim (feel) on all my trumpets but want different setups on each of them: 2 Bb's, C, D/Eb, picc, Bb & Eb Cornet, Flugehorn. That's 8 different instruments, 1 rim shape/size, 8+ different cup and backbore combos. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman
Last edited by zaferis on Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1466 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:27 am Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | There seems to be a concept that there is a certain "progression" to mouthpieces. Typically the concept aligns with what you've alluded to: Moving from a 7C to a 5C or 3C. I've been playing for 57 years and that concept was prevalent even back when I started playing in 1960. I don't know when or where that concept got started but it is by no means a hard and fast rule in practical application.
You want to use the mouthpiece that gives you the best results, that is, the results you feel are the best for you. Keep in mind that no mouthpiece is everything at once, they are all compromises/trade-offs in one or more ways.
You ought to have a good reason to switch mouthpieces other than someone saying that's what you're supposed to do as some sort of fixed, customary or recommended mouthpiece "progression." There should always be some objective you're trying to obtain by switching so that you have a standard to which you can compare your results to evaluate whether and to what extent the change enabled you to reach your objectives.
The fact that trumpets tend to come with a 7C mouthpiece has created the stigma that a 7C is a "beginner's mouthpiece." There are a lot of great players who play a 7C. There are a lot of great players who play a 5C. There are a lot of great players who play a 3C. There are a lot of great players playing a wide range of mouthpieces that aren't 7C or 5C or 3C.
The important thing is to try to match your mouthpiece to your objectives in terms of sound and playability. In order to match your mouthpiece to your objectives in terms of sound and playability you have to formulate those objectives. Formulating those objectives is the most important part of mouthpiece selection. |
+1!
Having played cornet and trumpet using Bach (1970:s)1 1/4 for all purposes during 30 years (incl lead) I began questioning the validity of my concept some 15 years ago and here I am today using a Wick Ultra 7 C for brass band cornet. So the reverse of a beginners choice. Why? Entering the Herald with questions concerning the final mouthpiece I got the advice maybe a smaller mpc might be the one. Was told this could be a good idea considering my age. Also the BE method made me capable of using far deeper mpc:s so I tested a batch of Denis Wick Ultras, honestly believing I would settle for if not a 1,5 C so a 3c. But no, my chops instantly fell in love with the 7C. Diameter 16,25 versus Bach 17,00, far deeper however, more rounded rim. Has provided me with fully OK range/endurance/sound quality. To my amazement!
Conclusion same as Hermowiki! _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5675 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:59 am Post subject: |
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One of the worst things I did in HS was to switch off of my 7C mouthpiece because of some misguided belief that I somehow needed to "progress" to something else, as if the 7C was a beginners mouthpiece. I didn't know what I was doing when it came to transitioning from one mouthpiece to the other, or even what I thought I was trying to get out of the switch, but I did it because I thought I was supposed to. Don't fall into that trap.
As others have said, 7C is just a size, and if it's working, don't mess with it. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Last edited by trickg on Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9001 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:00 am Post subject: |
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GordonH wrote: | By the way, I think where this upsizing thing comes from is that a lot of people don't get on with the 7C rim. I know that I found it had too much bite and was hampering my progress a bit. A 5C worked better for me when I was at that stage. If 7C is working for you then that's fine just stick with it. |
One can switch to a Schilke 11, almost the same mpc but a more comfortable rim. Yamaha probably has one that's similar but I never used Yamahas so I don't know specifically. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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BobD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 1251 Location: Boston MA
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:05 am Post subject: |
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How does the Denis Wick Ultra 7C compare to a modern Bach 7C. I have been playing a Shew Jazz and a Yamaha 14B4-GP but every time I play my Bach 7C it blows really free with a good sound and while I actually like the width of the rim I don't really like the sharpness. _________________ Adams/ACB collaborative
Yamaha Shew Jazz and Bach 7C |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:12 am Post subject: |
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If you're having good results there's no reason to switch. It's interesting that you think a 3C feels too big for you, when in fact, the cup diameter of a 3C is almost identical to the cup diameter of a 7C and the 3C is much shallower. Overall a 3C has less cup volume and with its shallower, more V-shaped cup, for most players, is easier to play high notes on. I remember being a kid in fifth or sixth grade and being told that a 3C was a mouthpiece to move to when one was "strong enough to handle it". Ironically, the mouthpiece that came with my horn was a Reynolds 7A (copy of the extremely deep Bach 7A) - so moving to the relatively shallow 3C should have felt easier - yet I imagined it was harder (but better sounding, which in retrospect, is debatable). Like me back then, I think it's a state of mind making you think the 3C is harder to play high notes on.
https://s25.postimg.org/tcrl51l4f/Bach_3_C_red_vs_Bach_7_C_green.jpg
Bach 3C (red) vs Bach 7C (green)
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5675 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:24 am Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | If you're having good results there's no reason to switch. It's interesting that you think a 3C feels too big for you, when in fact, the cup diameter of a 3C is almost identical to the cup diameter of a 7C and the 3C is much shallower. Overall a 3C has less cup volume and with its shallower, more V-shaped cup, for most players, is easier to play high notes on. I remember being a kid in fifth or sixth grade and being told that a 3C was a mouthpiece to move to when one was "strong enough to handle it". Ironically, the mouthpiece that came with my horn was a Reynolds 7A (copy of the extremely deep Bach 7A) - so moving to the relatively shallow 3C should have felt easier - yet I imagined it was harder (but better sounding, which in retrospect, is debatable). Like me back then, I think it's a state of mind making you think the 3C is harder to play high notes on.
https://s25.postimg.org/tcrl51l4f/Bach_3_C_red_vs_Bach_7_C_green.jpg
Bach 3C (red) vs Bach 7C (green)
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested |
There is a substantial difference in feel between the 7C and 3C. To me, the 7C feels pretty much like what it is - it feels deeper, but it also feels more narrow. Whether this is an actual measurement or rim contour thing is beside the point - I can use a 3C, but I can't really use the 7C, which is odd because I can use a Warburton 4SV, which is very similar in diameter to the 7C.
FWIW, I'm not totally sold on the mouthpiece comparitor - what it shows you are scans of two specific mouthpieces. I have 3Cs that play and feel differently, and I also have some 7Cs that play and feel differently - I'm not sure one can take a screen shot of a comparison of the two and get the real story. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1466 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:57 am Post subject: |
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BobD wrote: | How does the Denis Wick Ultra 7C compare to a modern Bach 7C. I have been playing a Shew Jazz and a Yamaha 14B4-GP but every time I play my Bach 7C it blows really free with a good sound and while I actually like the width of the rim I don't really like the sharpness. |
I donīt know īcause I have no Bach 7C; However, comparing Bach 1 1/4 and the Wick 7C (in this case the trumpet versions) I find the Bach broader, brigther, more overtones, but the Wick 7C warmer, more centered, displaying the elusive concept of more "core", a more well-defined sound.
In front of my lips that is! _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:21 am Post subject: |
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Yamaha used to make an 11C4 which they marked as 11C4-7C! It was different to a 7C though, more comfortable. I used one on piccolo trumpet at one time. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2662 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:34 am Post subject: |
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The whole notion of 'progression' strikes me as a fallacy. It implies that there are mouthpieces we start on that become less useable in time, and we then move in a set way to the next one. Sort of like moving up in size for string instruments.
The difference is that for a strings instrument, our physical size has a direct correlation to the instrument size. Our lips are not that different in size we move from childhood to adult.
Wouldn't it be far better to pick a general size which works well, and then as the player progresses, they can fine tune their needs and possibly move to a mouthpiece which better suits their needs?
What we do at our school is plonk a 1 1/2C mouthpiece in every trumpet. a 6 1/2AL in every trombone. Similar for horn and tuba... and euphonium.
Most kids don't need to change, but some do and of those, I reckon there have been a half dozen over the years. Those who went on to study music invariably changed mouthpieces in weeks of starting their course and then went on a safari for next few years, but couldn't say WHY they changed anything in the first place or that they agreed with their college teacher!
And those who arrive already playing? Don't change unless there is a clear need. I have kids on 3C, 5C, 1X, 2C and a 2 1/2C, plus some larger Yamahas and one on a Laskey. (I did give that to her, as she had this awful Tiltz 'jazz' mouthpiece. Nasty.)
To me it shows a few things.
1. A 7C mouthpiece isn't all that great in general, seeing as so many move away from it. Start elsewhere, and you can pretty well stay put.
2. Development isn't in the mouthpiece, it is in the player. Who uses different golf clubs because they got 'better'? Or bowl with a different cricket ball now they can spin? Learn to blow, swing or bowl better!
3. Less focus on gear is a good thing. It allows one to put more energy into what is important, the music.
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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BobD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 1251 Location: Boston MA
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:34 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | What we do at our school is plonk a 1 1/2C mouthpiece in every trumpet. |
Really? A 1-1/2C for a complete beginner? It's not too big? _________________ Adams/ACB collaborative
Yamaha Shew Jazz and Bach 7C |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:36 am Post subject: |
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If it ain't broke, don't fix it. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:10 am Post subject: |
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The Bach 7C is relatively uncomfortable for a lot of players. I think this helps fuel the notion that players need to progress away from it. When I want a piece that size I go to the Yamaha 11B4 or 11C4. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2662 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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BobD wrote: | Quote: | What we do at our school is plonk a 1 1/2C mouthpiece in every trumpet. |
Really? A 1-1/2C for a complete beginner? It's not too big? |
Not at all. Compare it to a 7, 5, or 3C and they are all quite close. But, the rim shape is a lot more comfortable, not having the extreme slope on the outside of the rim as a 7C does.
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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