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Starting again at 27 after 15 years away


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Jordynbaxter
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Joined: 08 Dec 2017
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Location: Glasgow UK

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:23 am    Post subject: Starting again at 27 after 15 years away Reply with quote

Ok so i'm not really a comeback player as i was never exactly there but i played from about 9 until 12 with lessons taken through school.

I packed it in in 1st year of high school because i wasn't interested in "trumpet music" and in terms of ability i was probably akin to a ropey grade 3 player. ive recently become interested in music by the likes of miles davis and dizzie gillespie as well as more recent players like avishai cohen.

So i decided to oil up my (very sticky) valves and learn to play properly.

I can read music but practical theory with regards to chords, harmony, key signatures etc is lacking so thats something id like to adress as well.

I did.play the guitar as a teenager, and was ok but this was all just by using tabs rather than sheet music so never helped really developed theory because i never knew what i was playing just strings and fret numbers!

As a starting point i bought the book i remember having as a boy, a tune a day, which is pretty boring. Ive also been using free beginner etudes/lessons from jefflewistrumpet.com.

I have found free copies of the arban book, and clarkes and some others but to be honest theyre beyond my at the moment. I cam barely hit those high notes on the 1st arban exercises! So ive mainly stuck with the above and various youtube videos for things like breathing, lip placement.

Practiising at least half an hour a day, more like an hour and a half on days im not in the gym split into 3 half hour sessions, resting as much as i play etc.

So long story short if anyone can point me in the right direction for good resources? Are the abrsm books worthwhile, such as starting with the jazz trumpet grade 1 book and the theory books?

I know getting a good teacher for lessons would be ideal but for now its a no, maybe if my playing is at an ok level in a couple of years i could consider that investment but ive already had to fork out for a silent brass mute as i live on a flat with zero insulation from upstairs (most of my practise is quite late at night).

So yeh long post but if anyone can help out i'll be much obliged!
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The biggest problem beginning players have is with basic sound production but instead of focusing on that they practice tunes or exercises which they play with poor sound quality, the thought being that "sound quality will take care of itself the more I play and I need to get used to playing tunes and exercises as soon as possible."

The easier and more consistently you can make good sounds on the trumpet the easier and more consistently everything else will come along. So, my recommendation to the beginning student is to devote most of their practice time to simply developing a good sound. The best way to do that is, unfortunately, the most boring practice there is: Long tones.

Practicing long tones is very monotonous but it pays off big time in the long run and you don't need a method book to practice them.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My advice to you would be to find recordings that you can play along to with accompanying music. It can be almost anything - if you can find a chart and a matching track on YouTube, that's a great way to go. I do a lot of practicing with recordings because it helps with things like phrasing, inflection, timing, and intonation.

Another tip - record yourself and listen to those recordings critically to find the things that you do well, as well as the things you need to work on.

Work hard on basic fundamentals:

  1. Sound production. Long tones - lots and lots of long tones.
  2. Articulation. Your attack defines how you are going to sound. If you have a good tone but a foofy attack, the main thing people will notices are your foofy attacks. Do lots and lots of tonging exercises, particularly with scales. Up and down scales, over and over and over.
  3. Flexibilities. Do easy lip slurs and lots of them, particularly back and forth between two intervals, and nothing above the staff for now. C-G, B-F#, Bb-F, etc. If you can't do them there, do G-C, F#-B(low), F-Bb(low), E-A(low), etc.
  4. Fingers. Learn your scales. Just do it. If you tackle one new scale every week, before you know it, you'll be able to play in every key. Your fluency in keys that are more than 3 sharps or flats is critical if you want to play anything that moves beyond school grade music. I work in a wedding band doing rock and roll horn lines, and it's nothing unusual to pull up a chart that has 5 or 6 sharps or flats. Start with C and move around the circle of 4ths/5ths moving around the flat side: C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab/G#, etc.

Ultimately there is no secret or shortcut - it's just a lot of work in the practice room.

Good luck, and keep us posted.
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homecookin
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a very excellent book called EMBOUCHURE BUILDER.
It was written by Lowell Little.
This book starts off with soft long tones in the lower to
middle register and gradually works with lip slurs to increase
the flexibility and embouchure strength and range.
If you read and follow Mr Little's instructions in this book you
will have good success. Take it easy, do not force notes.
Along with the EMBOUCHURE BUILDER book, get the book called
FIRST BOOK OF PRACTICAL STUDIES for TRUMPET.
This book starts off with very simple exercises in the lower and
middle register, starting off with whole notes half notes and quarter notes.
The exercises gradually increase in difficulty, and range.
As someone posted earlier, long tones are effective in
developing tone and attack.
Tone and attack are the two most
important fundamentals of playing the trumpet.
But it is important to practice out of method books
that are appropriate for your level of proficiency.
It is important to practice in an intelligent
and organized manner.
This will help you recognize the progress you're making
and will help you avoid becoming discouraged.
One other thing, you will have good days and bad days,
good practice sessions and bad practice sessions.
This is normal and all of us are subjected to it.
Do not let this discourage you.
Playing the trumpet takes determination
and perseverance.
Good luck to you in your musical
endeavors and keep us posted as to how it goes
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GeorgeB
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's really good advice from Patrick.
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used Smart Music for a long time. There's a lot of music for play along from easy to hard. There are exercises that tell you after playing where you made a mistake. Pitch to low or high and early or late. If you can't figure out the line, it will play it for you.

You can record yourself and listen to your playing or, email to a teacher or a friend.

https://www.smartmusic.com/
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gwood66
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 Embouchure Builder
+1 everything Patrick said

You could try Claude Gordon's Physical Approach to Elementary Brass Playing. I has most if not all of the elements described in Patrick's post. It requires St Jacombes Grand Method which you can get here:

http://www.bbtrumpet.com/free-public-domain-trumpet-methods/

Another popular method is Mitchell on Trumpet. The first book comes with a DVD of someone playing the exercises.

Don't discount Clarke Technical Studies. Studies #1 and #2 are within your grasp. Start by playing them slowly, at a normal volume and only the ones you can play without straining. Alternate between slurring them one day/week and tonguing them the next.

The most import advice I could give is rest as much as you play. Play a couple of measures. Take the horn off of you mouth and rest for at least the same amount of time that you played. In the beginning I would recommend resting one and a half to two times as long. This will allow you to practice longer on fresh lips. You should also stop when your lips start to get tired. I will prevent you from developing bad habits by playing on tired lips. When I first started my comeback I never did this and my lips would swell when I got tired and I was done after 5 or 10 minutes. I didnt make any real progress until I started resting.
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Jordynbaxter
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks everyone for the detailed answers.

I'll look into everyrhing you've all mentioned, cheers.
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trmptgvl
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can relate to coming back to the trumpet. I played from 5th grade through college. Other life paths have kept me from playing for the past 20 years. I recently decided I wanted to set playing the Brandenburg Concerto #2 as a goal. We'll see if that ever happens. I'm pulled in many directions, so I just play for myself any chance I get. However, I'm really enjoying just making a good sound and enjoy the feel of playing trumpet again. Something about being is sync with a tune just feels great. I have a dozen books from back in the day. I have used some Arban's and the Vacchiano/Brandt etudes. These help me with endurance and sound. However, for building range and flexibility back up I'm mainly using the Flexus book. I'm sure other's mileage may vary, but that's working well for me right now. I'm up to a very solid C on Bb and on the pic can consistently get up to G at the start of practice. As an aside, I never played pic previously and it is really a lot of fun. I actually think it may help with range and technique on the Bb, but it's easy to over do it.
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ButchA
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solid advice on this entire thread...

Can't emphasize the long tones and lip slurs enough, as Patrick as saying in his reply.

YOU CAN DO IT!!
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trmptgvl
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thinking a little more about your specific situation, if your goal is to play like the artists you mentioned listen to their albums and try to replicate their sound. I think having a sound to emulate or build from is key. 1.5 hours of practice per day is more than enough to make steady progress. I'd recommend trying to do most of it without the silent brass mute. That's too artificial for every day work. Arban's or whatever book you have is probably fine if it hold your interest to work through it. Make sure you consciously know what you are tryin to achieve. Perhaps it's just perfecting a few measures. Keep track of what your doing so you can see your progress. And don't disregard your guitar background. If you can hear and think in cords maybe you can bring those skills to the trumpet. Trumpet is a physical instrument but the goal is music.

Anyway, take my advice for what it's worth. I'm writing mainly because I can relate to "coming back." There are many amazing trumpet player on this site whose skills far exceed mine (perhaps most of them). I'm mainly here to listen.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to list some method books in my post above, but a method book is only good if you do two things:

1.) Work out of it
2.) Work out of it correctly

I know that when I dive into the method books, sometimes I get a bit wrapped up in what I'm doing and I don't take time to rest properly, or I push myself beyond what would otherwise be good for my chops, and it's easy to do that.

On the flip side, I think that working technical exercises can be very beneficial when it comes to wiring your eyes, brain, and technique (particularly your fingers) together so that your reading fluency improves.

The thing is, there are SO many books a person can look into, it can become analysis paralysis:

Arbans
St. Jacomb
Clarke Technical Studies
Clarke Characteristic Studies
Claude Gordon Systematic Approach
Charlier
Herring Etudes
Irons
Schlossberg
Vizzuti
Bai Lin Lip Flexibilities
Sache
Chicowicz Flow Studies
Colin
etc ad nauseum

The only book I had for years was the Arbans, and I used a good bit from that book for basic technique. I also like Clarke Technical Studies, but to be quite honest, there are only a few exercises I do from that.
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- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
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Jordynbaxter
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So tonight i managed 2 half hour practice sessions.

The first one i just played the jeff lewis sites lesson 3 (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.jefflewistrumpet.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Lesson-3.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjG6NLMk4PYAhWQbVAKHXxZCDsQFgg-MAo&usg=AOvVaw0pthJTFgQkJv4UKcwF0j9-)

Which has 9 exercises, a bit of tonguing and some slurs with minims and crotchets at 70 bpm. Got through twice in both sessions and finished the second session with some long notes. I just done middle G for 15 seconds 5 times then the same for C below the staff.

I'm going to get the embouchure builder.

Does what im doing sound ok though? If not could some suggest and outline a good routine to follow for a standard half hour session that covers everything i need as a beginner.

Ie something like:

Slurs
Tonguing
Scale for the week
Long tones

Or would i be better off focusing the sessions?

I really just want to make the most efficient use of practise time, there just arent enough hours in the day!

Patrick i seen you said find some sheet music and play along with recordings, the abrsm do books of repertoire for each grade of jazz trumpet that comes with an accompanying CD do you think this would be a good purchase?
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trickg
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jordynbaxter wrote:
So tonight i managed 2 half hour practice sessions.

The first one i just played the Jeff Lewis sites lesson 3 (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.jefflewistrumpet.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Lesson-3.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjG6NLMk4PYAhWQbVAKHXxZCDsQFgg-MAo&usg=AOvVaw0pthJTFgQkJv4UKcwF0j9-)

Which has 9 exercises, a bit of tonguing and some slurs with minims and crotchets at 70 bpm. Got through twice in both sessions and finished the second session with some long notes. I just done middle G for 15 seconds 5 times then the same for C below the staff.

I'm going to get the embouchure builder.

Does what I'm doing sound ok though? If not could some suggest and outline a good routine to follow for a standard half hour session that covers everything i need as a beginner.

Ie something like:

Slurs
Tonguing
Scale for the week
Long tones

Or would i be better off focusing the sessions?

I really just want to make the most efficient use of practise time, there just aren't enough hours in the day!

Patrick i seen you said find some sheet music and play along with recordings, the abrsm do books of repertoire for each grade of jazz trumpet that comes with an accompanying CD do you think this would be a good purchase?

I think that anything you can get that is still within your scope of ability to learn is going to be good.

(EDIT: I just looked at the Jeff Lewis site - that's a neat resource with a lot of good stuff on it for people getting their feet under them with the trumpet.)

On the long tones, is there a reason why you only went 15 seconds per? Try this next time - don't stop at 15 seconds - start at the 12 and see how far you can go playing a controlled tone before you run out of air. Then, see if you can beat it. Ideally you should get to a point where you can do long tones for nearly a full minute (or more) on a G in the staff.

Try breaking your practice into separate days. Make Day 1 be your technique day. I typically always start with long tones, then I'll move to articulation, then to lip slurs, and then do some drills and scale work. Really work on those things - spend a fair amount of time doing each discipline.

The next day, do a quick warmup to get the blood flowing, then work on music. A good "purchase" (you might even be able to snag one from a local church if you don't have one already) would be to get a hymnal, and start working on lyrical things from that, or whatever else you might obtain. If you really want an adventure, get a MuseScore account! There is a wealth of music on MuseScore, and with an account, there's no real limit to how much you can use.

Side note tip: When doing your technical work, take a short break between disciplines - say 3-5 minutes.

On your music night, do a warm up, and then step away for 5-10 minutes before getting into the music.
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Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
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Jordynbaxter
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Joined: 08 Dec 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:

I think that anything you can get that is still within your scope of ability to learn is going to be good.

(EDIT: I just looked at the Jeff Lewis site - that's a neat resource with a lot of good stuff on it for people getting their feet under them with the trumpet.)

On the long tones, is there a reason why you only went 15 seconds per? Try this next time - don't stop at 15 seconds - start at the 12 and see how far you can go playing a controlled tone before you run out of air. Then, see if you can beat it. Ideally you should get to a point where you can do long tones for nearly a full minute (or more) on a G in the staff.

Try breaking your practice into separate days. Make Day 1 be your technique day. I typically always start with long tones, then I'll move to articulation, then to lip slurs, and then do some drills and scale work. Really work on those things - spend a fair amount of time doing each discipline.

The next day, do a quick warmup to get the blood flowing, then work on music. A good "purchase" (you might even be able to snag one from a local church if you don't have one already) would be to get a hymnal, and start working on lyrical things from that, or whatever else you might obtain. If you really want an adventure, get a MuseScore account! There is a wealth of music on MuseScore, and with an account, there's no real limit to how much you can use.

Side note tip: When doing your technical work, take a short break between disciplines - say 3-5 minutes.

On your music night, do a warm up, and then step away for 5-10 minutes before getting into the music.


Thanks i'll look into musescore.

Re the 15 seconds, i blew a long tone for as long as i could and found the note i was playing went to pot at about 20s, so i thought if i play 15 x 5 for a G then C then tomorrow do the same for 5 x 16s etc until i build up to being able to produce a nice clean sound for 60s. I have noticed that generally at the end of my practice sessions its the notes on the lower end of my range that go first, they get really buzzy like theres no control in my lips.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jordynbaxter wrote:
Thanks i'll look into musescore.

Re the 15 seconds, i blew a long tone for as long as i could and found the note i was playing went to pot at about 20s, so i thought if i play 15 x 5 for a G then C then tomorrow do the same for 5 x 16s etc until i build up to being able to produce a nice clean sound for 60s. I have noticed that generally at the end of my practice sessions its the notes on the lower end of my range that go first, they get really buzzy like theres no control in my lips.

You probably don't have much control in your lips at that point.

A think a lot of adult beginners and comeback players sometimes forget how long it takes to develop the embouchure. Some people come by it faster than others, but in my own case, if I look back at what I was doing in my formative years as a player, things didn't really start to click well until I was well into my 3rd year of playing, and I didn't develop the kind of proficiency to where I could go out and play at an upper level until my 7th and 8th years playing. (I played my first paid gig at a wedding when I was 17 and into my 7th year as a player)

Just keep that in mind as you continue to forge ahead with this, and try not to get discouraged. A kid has no qualms about playing the basic, baby-step stuff that gets them moving in the right direction. Adults don't fare so well - they tend to want to go too far, too fast, and their chops and technique can't maintain that kind of pace or development.

Trumpet is a tough instrument to get a handle on as an adult, and especially for an adult who hadn't developed their chops too far the first time around. Keep digging in though - the hard work will pay off if you work it long enough.
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- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
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Bach-aha
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetchops wrote:
I used Smart Music for a long time. There's a lot of music for play along from easy to hard. There are exercises that tell you after playing where you made a mistake. Pitch to low or high and early or late. If you can't figure out the line, it will play it for you.

You can record yourself and listen to your playing or, email to a teacher or a friend.

https://www.smartmusic.com/


I agree with a lot of what was posted above. This particular post peaked my interest as I am an elementary band teacher who also teaches a lot of private students. I find that using smartmusic is a wonderful tool for beginners all the way to advanced college students. I know that I prepared for my master's recital using the piano accompaniment in smart music for the pieces I was working on. This helped tremondously in my study of the pieces and getting the kinks out before meeting with my accompanist.

At $40 USD for a yearly subscription to use the whole available library (Arbans, plus solo pieces, plus band arrangements, and jazz play alongs) there's plenty to keep you busy.

Also with you having silent brass...you can use that as your microphone input to play along and record at any time of day.

Best of luck and keep us posted on your progress.
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GeorgeB
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:

A think a lot of adult beginners and comeback players sometimes forget how long it takes to develop the embouchure.


So true. In March 2018 I'll be starting the 3rd year of my comeback and my embouchure is still developing.
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1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet
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the_zigzagger
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in a similar position: played a bit in middle school, now taking lessons and studying serioulsy as an adult.

Everyone already mentioned the usual suspects: Arban, Clarke, Schlossberg et al. I would also highly recommend the Rubank Elementary Method book. It's not written like a kid's band book (no Camptown Races, or Row Row Row Your Boat), it's got a much longer, smoother "on ramp" that the big books don't have and many of the exercises are *musical* in way that can be tremendously refreshing after 30 minutes of Arban. For the $8 or whatever it was I paid for it online -- it's been worth its weight in gold.

Julie Landsman's Caruso method videos are also definitely worth a look.

All the best,

ZZ
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Jordynbaxter
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barely played over the festive period but got some good practise in over the weekend.

Books i'm using are the embouchure builder and the arban, with scales for fingering. I really need to work on my breathing, i seem to get out of breath easily, like i need to stop and let a good breathe out and then back in some times, if im focusing too much on what im playing and not breathing naturally.

I also have the ABRSM grade 1 jazz trumpet repitoire book, and the jazz and classical grades scales and arpeggios books.
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