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trumpetlane Regular Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2009 Posts: 49 Location: Ooltewah, TN
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:57 am Post subject: Arban Intervals |
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Hello. As I work in the Arban’s book on the Intervals section (pg. 126 I believe), I feel like my jaw moves a lot (especially as I play them fast). Is this normal or acceptable? I typically try to keep my embouchure and mouthpiece set for high and low ranges with minimal movement in my face. But these intervals seem to just throw me off a bit. Any thoughts or advice? _________________ Gregory Lindquist
Educator, Conductor, Performer
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rufflicks Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 Posts: 641 Location: Mesa AZ
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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This is almost impossible to answer without seeing what you are doing and hearing your results. Some range of movement is to be expected. The wider the interval the greater the movement might become. The best that I can offer is; if your accuracy is good and your tone is centered and full you are probably ok. This is very general so…
Best, Jon _________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips
Remember this is supposed to be fun. |
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homecookin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2013 Posts: 868
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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If your jaw is moving "a lot" as you say it is.
Then that tells me that you are using way too much tongue motion.
The very tip of the tongue should serve as the articulator.
Even with the very wide intervals, jaw movement should be kept
to an absolute minimum.
If your jaw is moving a lot then you're not playing efficiently.
Concentrate on using just the very tip of your tongue to articulate the notes.
Start with the interval studies on page 125 and practice them very slowly at first, always working for accuracy.
Do not practice them too loudly. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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I think there's a pragmatic reason to strive for not too much movement. But I think a good way to approach intervals is to use what movement you need with the expectation that as your technique refines, you won't need as much.
One of the worst pieces of advice I got a young player was to suppress any external movement. All that did was increase my reliance on pressure. Yeah, I don't recommend it. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
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trumpetlane Regular Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2009 Posts: 49 Location: Ooltewah, TN
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I shouldn't say "a lot" of movement. It just feels like a lot. My sound seems fine. I am always making that a priority. I do however sometimes feel like my jaw is getting a bit sore or tight. I will try the suggestions of lighter tonguing and softer playing. Thanks for your thoughts. _________________ Gregory Lindquist
Educator, Conductor, Performer
Bb - XO 1602S-R
C - Jupiter XO 1624s
D - Yamaha YTR-751
Cornet - Yamaha YCR-231
Flugel - Getzen 895 Eterna
Pic - Getzen 940 Eterna w/ Blackburn leadpipes
Stork Vacchiano Mouthpieces |
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homecookin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2013 Posts: 868
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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trumpetlane wrote: | I guess I shouldn't say "a lot" of movement. It just feels like a lot. My sound seems fine. I am always making that a priority. I do however sometimes feel like my jaw is getting a bit sore or tight. I will try the suggestions of lighter tonguing and softer playing. Thanks for your thoughts. |
Watch videos of...
Thomas Stevens
Thomas Hooten
Haken Hardenberger
Doc Severinsen
Wynton Marsalis
Arturo Sandoval
or any other world class trumpet player
and observe if you see their jaws moving when they're
tonguing notes.
Many successful players pivot, or somewhat tilt their
head down for lower register notes.
Doc Severinsen is a good example of this.
But that is entirely different from your jaw
moving every time you tongue notes. |
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Jerry Freedman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jan 2002 Posts: 2476 Location: Burlington, Massachusetts
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:26 am Post subject: |
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If movement is the issue then perhaps Caruso style timing might be the solution. Tap your foot as you play and mentally subdivide the beats into 16th notes for instance aaa ( 1234 )eee(1234)aaa(1234). The key being that you don't make the movement, whatever it may be until after the last quarter of the beat.
Charlie Raymond who used to moderate the Caruso section of TH wrote that he once asked Caruso what he should do as an advanced student and Caruso told him to subdivide into 32ths |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:48 am Post subject: |
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If you have a lot of movement, jaw/embouchure/whatever, then you might be practicing them too fast. I know it's tempting to practice these as fast as possible to work on agility, but I wouldn't do that at the expense of good form. (I don't know if your jaw movement has crossed that line yet, though.)
Arban's instructions are to practice these assiduously (with great care) and without altering the position of the mouthpiece.
Franquin's instructions for his interval exercises are to start slowly, to take care not to use too much mouthpiece pressure on the high notes, and to make sure the high notes are as deep-sounding as the others.
The guidance from both of these methods suggests that speed isn't the top priority; developing flexibility, playing with a good sound, and using a smooth, even approach are the main objectives. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
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Nonsense Eliminator Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 5212 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:01 am Post subject: |
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Nobody can say whether it's too much without hearing it and seeing it. If you simply try not to move you will almost certainly end up manipulating something else in an undesirable way. _________________ Richard Sandals
NBO |
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solo soprano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 856 Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:26 am Post subject: |
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Arban's Interval Studies
page 125-129.
William Vacchiano tells the story that he was once having lunch with four other trumpet players, one was Doc Severinsen, one was Manny Klein and the other two escape me at the moment. But all five players agreed the this section of the Arban book was the finest by far exercise ever written for building endurance.
One approach to practicing the exercises.
Take the first exercise set the metronome at 120. 120 will equal each note. Each click of the metronome will be one note. Do pages 125 & 126 without the repeats. The idea is to rest between each but to leave the horn on the lips for the duration of each exercise, breathing when necessary, leaving the mouthpiece on the lips. And then rest as much as you play. These are not to be played softly at first, just a nice big free tone. Then gradually on each exercise, stay with one for the first week doing the 120. Then each week turn it down a notch and stay with it until you can do each note at 60 on the metronome. You should use the models at the bottom of the page for variety. _________________ Bill Knevitt, who taught me the seven basic physical elements and the ten principles of physical trumpet playing and how to develop them.
https://qpress.ca/product-category/trumpet/?filter_publisher=la-torre-music |
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Pops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2002 Posts: 2039 Location: Dallas (Grand Prairie), Texas
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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I anchor tongue (the tip stays on the bottom teeth and I tongue with the top of the tongue). I get almost no jaw movement from this.
Part of it has to do with the length of the tonguing stroke. IF you make it go a long way to tongue then you will have movement. (It slows you down too.) _________________ Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Nonsense Eliminator wrote: | Nobody can say whether it's too much without hearing it and seeing it. If you simply try not to move you will almost certainly end up manipulating something else in an undesirable way. |
+1
In general, we drop our jaws and think "aw" with our tongue for the low notes, and bring our lower jaw up and think "eee" with our tongue for the high notes. So by definition, for nearly all players there is jaw movement, and when playing wide intervals there will be significant (meaning measurable) jaw movement.
Don't worry about it.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:59 am Post subject: |
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How does it sound? _________________ Bill Bergren |
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solo soprano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 856 Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
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Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:39 am Post subject: |
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The jaw will move as you play. Your jaw is built on a hinge. It is meant to move. When the tongue moves, the jaw moves with it. As the tongue lowers into the 'AW' position, the jaw drops. As the tongue rises into the "EEE" position, the jaw rises with it. Never would the tongue and jaw move in opposite directions. If they did, you would have a collision inside your mouth. So do not try to hold the jaw rigid when you play, but let it move freely with the tongue. The rule is: Don't try to make it happen, just let it happen, and don't try to prevent it. _________________ Bill Knevitt, who taught me the seven basic physical elements and the ten principles of physical trumpet playing and how to develop them.
https://qpress.ca/product-category/trumpet/?filter_publisher=la-torre-music |
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homecookin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2013 Posts: 868
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Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:22 am Post subject: |
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Of course it is true that's a jaw moves slightly when the
tongue changes level from AW to EE.
That is pretty much a given in brass playing.
But this movement is minimal at best.
And when practicing the intervals
beginning on page 125 in the
Arban book, the tongue level does change
from AW to EE as the intervals get wider.
If the player is using too much jaw movement,
that fact will certainly hinder developing any
speed and control in playing these exercises.
I have not read all the posts in this thread, but
I do not believe anyone has said that you should
hold the jaw in an absolutely rigid position. |
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trumpetfever99 New Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2017 Posts: 5 Location: Austin, Texas
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Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Do what is feels right _________________ Justin Humphrey |
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BBB1976 Veteran Member
Joined: 30 May 2016 Posts: 134
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:10 pm Post subject: Arban Intervals |
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Great exercises! |
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deleted_user_ae17caf New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Just started Arban and gosh those intervals do look tough.. |
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ljazztrm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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solo soprano wrote: | Arban's Interval Studies
page 125-129.
One approach to practicing the exercises.
Take the first exercise set the metronome at 120. 120 will equal each note. Each click of the metronome will be one note. Do pages 125 & 126 without the repeats. The idea is to rest between each but to leave the horn on the lips for the duration of each exercise, breathing when necessary, leaving the mouthpiece on the lips. And then rest as much as you play. These are not to be played softly at first, just a nice big free tone. Then gradually on each exercise, stay with one for the first week doing the 120. Then each week turn it down a notch and stay with it until you can do each note at 60 on the metronome. You should use the models at the bottom of the page for variety. |
Hey Solo Soprano, sounds like a really good approach for an endurance study. Are you saying to leave the horn on your face for all of 125 and 126 and rest between each line as long as it took you to play it while leaving the horn on the chops? Or are you, perhaps, saying to do all of 125 without rest, leave the horn on your chops the whole time and, then, rest as long as it took you to play 125 and go on to 126? _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
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gdghorn Regular Member
Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Posts: 19
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:40 am Post subject: |
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homecookin wrote: | If your jaw is moving "a lot" as you say it is.
Then that tells me that you are using way too much tongue motion.
The very tip of the tongue should serve as the articulator.
Even with the very wide intervals, jaw movement should be kept
to an absolute minimum.
If your jaw is moving a lot then you're not playing efficiently.
Concentrate on using just the very tip of your tongue to articulate the notes.
Start with the interval studies on page 125 and practice them very slowly at first, always working for accuracy.
Do not practice them too loudly. |
Won't argue with you since everyone is different...I use the anchor tongue technique now for about 2 years. Wish I had switched decades ago... |
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