Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:45 pm Post subject: Small Diameter Mouthpiece
Hi all,
TL;DR: I'mlooking for something similar to the Yamaha EM1 in terms of the rim shape and diameter but with a deeper cup. Any ideas?
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So, I've been exploring the very small end of the mouthpiece spectrum lately. To my surprise, they actually really work for me.
I had tried small diameter pieces in the past, but with my .470 trumpet, I could play them, no bottoming out, but I sounded a bit on the airy/hissy side of things in the low-mid register and was prone to overblowing them.
Recently, however, I got Harrelson Trumpet to send me some shims with different venturi sizes so that I could experiment with that a bit. To my surprise, the tighter the venturi, the bigger the sound seemed to get for me, and the small and shallower I could go with a good sound. Worth trying out for sure.
I currently have a .342 venturi shim in my trumpet (Essentially a CG Benge) and for me, it makes it even easier to play, and I'm not noticing any real tradeoffs or strange effects like you might expect from messing with something like that. Although I'm combining that small venturi with almost no gap, so those two things combined might be balancing each other out some?
One big advantage I've noticed is that I am able to play a very small mouthpiece and get a full, sound.
For example, I have a Yamaha EM2, a Callet 1SS mouthpiece and a Warburton WCC top. I can play them both and get a pretty darn good sound. Not nearly as bright as you would expect for such shallow mouthpieces.
Of the three, I like the EM2 the most. It's very comfortable and forgiving and playable. The Callet has a surprisingly full, dark, classical sound. But my technique needs to be perfect.
The EM2 actually feels bizarrely too-big. So I'm going to order an EM1 to try as well.
But I'm also going to be looking for something similar to the EM1 in terms of the rim shape and diameter but with a deeper cup. Any ideas?
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:42 am Post subject:
Hey tbn..you have a lot to work with.. I am pretty positive Eric's rim is based on a Schilke 6a4a rim.. a .630 diameter.. If you want to go deeper, there's a lot of options. The Warburton 7 rim is .630.. The Reeves '40' size is right around there. Curry '30' series. Legends has pieces right around that size: legendsmouthpieces.com All the best, Lex
p.s. - The WCC is quite a bit smaller at .590 but has a bigger feel because of the rim profile. I always dug the WCC as well..You're right..not too bright as you would think..I used to have a WCC 'M', which is even deeper. Also Callet has got a new Superchops small diameter piece out that looks really good.. Jim New makes it.. And speaking of Jim, check out all his new personal lead line models! http://james-r-new.com/mouthpieces/lead-line-trumpet-mouthpiec.html Keep in mind Jim measures his pieces differently than a lot of other mouthpiece makers.. but you can see the Chase model on there at .630.. Check out his comparator..pretty excellent.
Hey, you may really dig the old Holton MF3..medium straight V mouthpiece.. I love it for small group jazz and classical..but I could do lead on it as well if I had to..I even had Jim New make me a flugel mouthpiece with a Holton MF3 top and a flugel backbore.. It's great when things get louder and I don't want to switch to trumpet. _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
My Reeves 40HF is one of my deepest and has the prettiest sound..I use that one when things are soft enough. _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:49 am Post subject:
Also check out Derek's (Legends) FBL line..straight V cups based on Maynard's FBL's but smaller diameter.. Really sweet pieces.. the FBL TSX is very versatile as well like the Holton MF3.. _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
I'd echo the Reeves 40 recommendation - the 40C is fairly medium depth and yet seems much stronger in the high register than you'd expect, the 40S is an excellent fairly shallow lead piece.
If my memory of the 43's I used to have holds, the B cup was much deeper and darker than the C cup - haven't ever seen a 40B but knowing Reeves it's almost guaranteed to be excellent
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:09 am Post subject:
Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
...I currently have a .342 venturi shim in my trumpet (Essentially a CG Benge)...
The leadpipe venturi of a CG Benge is supposed to measure .358" though many were made with leadpipes with the more typical Benge venturi size of around .345". This discrepancy infuriated Claude and was one of the reasons he went to Selmer with his second and final horn design, where ironically, he had the same problem with out of spec venturis for awhile.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:12 am Post subject:
TKSop wrote:
If my memory of the 43's I used to have holds, the B cup was much deeper and darker than the C cup - haven't ever seen a 40B but knowing Reeves it's almost guaranteed to be excellent
Yes, while the 43C cup is a bit shallower than a typical modern Bach 3C, the 43B is a deep, V-shaped cup that is similar to a CG Personal's cup.
...I currently have a .342 venturi shim in my trumpet (Essentially a CG Benge)...
The leadpipe venturi of a CG Benge is supposed to measure .358" though many were made with leadpipes with the more typical Benge venturi size of around .345". This discrepancy infuriated Claude and was one of the reasons he went to Selmer with his second and final horn design, where ironically, he had the same problem with out of spec venturis for awhile.
Hey John,
The venturi on these trumpets is a bit different in practice too because they have the edge of the leadpipe chamfered down so that there is no gap.
I bought the shims for a different trumpet, but I inevitably had to try them on this trumpet as well.
Harrelson sent me sizes in .342 .345 and .350 venturis to try out. What I found was that adding any shim, regardless of venturi, made the slots firmer, which I liked. I tried the different sizes and at first preferred the .350 - THe sound seemed bigger with the shim in. But the .342 definitely made the upper register easier for me personally and added more volume and control to my extreme upper register. I also found that there was very little real trade off in other registers either. The only notable downside is that it basically makes any mouthpiece play/sound a cup size or two deeper, I assume because there is less lip going into the cup now.
I know you're a skeptic about such things, but if you ever are in the mode for some playing around, I say try it.
My shims were the .383 outside diameter, but I recommend going one size smaller as you will be locked into either very little gap or the shank bottoming out on the shim.
hello
Bach 10 1/2C, or more comfortable rim to me, Marcinkiewicz 6- 10 1/2C
best
Interesting - did you find the Marcinkiewicz 6-10-1/2C to resemble a 10 1/2c in any way?
I didn't dislike it, but I found it very different to the sorts of pieces we're talking here (approx .630), and very very different from any Bach 10 1/2c I've ever seen - far more rounded rim, deeper cup and much bigger ID in feel (felt easily as wide as some .650 pieces and possibly bigger).
Don't get me wrong it's a good piece but I don't think it's what the OP is after
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:43 am Post subject:
hello TKsop
according to what i experimented, in Bach a 15.75mm ID (10 3/4 A model) equals or feels a Marcinkiewicz 16.54mm Ingram's rim, i played both mpcs for couple of years, and had tried the Miyashiro's mpc before, and played Yam 7B4.
These two last felt to me like a Bach 10 1/2. I have a Marcinkiewicz 6 10 1/2, and even if i agree with you about the differences, in term of playing they gave me both the same feeling, except about rim comfort.
If the OP is not affected a lot by these little differences, it's worth trying these models, or the Yam 7B4, given at 16.08mm, so close to EM1's ID (16.02)
_________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:55 am Post subject:
I have a victorian cornet mouthpiece that is 14mm (0.55 inches). It does not sound like a small mouthpiece but I can only play on it for short periods of time. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Joined: 21 Apr 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Somewhere in the mountains of North Georgia
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:29 pm Post subject:
I'll just chime in with diameters in my experience. Too large a diameter causes discomfort and makes things hard. For me, most mouthpieces are too large. I have found my ideal diameter to be that of a French horn mouthpiece from the 1860s-1870s. I have no idea about the specs, but it is rather small. From the few mouthpieces of too small a diameter for me that I have tried, however, I find that something too small can make playing incredibly smooth and somewhat mellow, but that it limits volume and upper register control. For example, if a mouthpiece is too small for me, I typically can't slot a double G, no matter how hard I try. I just end up sliding around up there like a drunkard on a SlipN'Slide. On the other hand, a mouthpiece diameter too large for me will either cut short my upper register, make slots too hard, or just generally make things so hard it isn't fun to play.
I also personally do like the philosophy of playing on the smallest diameter you can handle (play without major detriment, that is), because it promotes efficiency. Bear in mind though that what is most important is what diameter is, in general, most comfortable/the best fit FOR YOU.
Think of it as shoe size: You have a size that fits you the best, in general. Rim shape is like the padding inside the shoe. Cup depth is like the type of shoe. Cup shape is like the features of the shoe. Rim shape fine tunes comfort. Cup depth determines the general sound. Cup shape colors and refines the sound. Other aspects, such as throat, backbore, weight, ect... simply further refine what you are striving for. They can also serve to balance the blow depending on cup volume, all of which simply serves to make playing easier.
Basically, once you know your ideal diameter, you can have different mouthpieces to suit your various needs, so long as the I.D. remains constant. _________________ 1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
1922 Holton-Clarke Cornet
1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
...And many more
After playing on some very small diameters, I tried playing a bit on an old Warburton 7S top I have, and it doesn't at all feel small, or shallow. It actually feels pretty big and comfortably deep. Perception of size is relative, clearly!
But I continue to find I'm way more comfortable on smaller diameters, and can just as big of a sound with a small mouthpiece (The backbore definitely has much more effect than diameter IMO).
So onwards into the unknown!
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