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New horn: vintage or modern


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Thatoneguy
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Joined: 26 Oct 2017
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fortunately at my school the music program is rather lax and my tutor here just suggests whatever fits me personally. My conductor also advocates for finding a horn that suits me personally. (Our music program, not saying it's bad but it's not super high end) I was just curious as to what people's opinions were as I've seen Olds supers or 22B's that are relatively cheap compared to Xeno's or Strads. Not saying that any are particularly bad but just curious. Thanks to all that have commented!
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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Location: Gardena, Ca

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thatoneguy wrote:
Fortunately at my school the music program is rather lax and my tutor here just suggests whatever fits me personally. My conductor also advocates for finding a horn that suits me personally. (Our music program, not saying it's bad but it's not super high end) I was just curious as to what people's opinions were as I've seen Olds supers or 22B's that are relatively cheap compared to Xeno's or Strads. Not saying that any are particularly bad but just curious. Thanks to all that have commented!

Are you referring to used xenos and strads?
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2578

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thatoneguy wrote:
Fortunately at my school the music program is rather lax and my tutor here just suggests whatever fits me personally. My conductor also advocates for finding a horn that suits me personally. (Our music program, not saying it's bad but it's not super high end) I was just curious as to what people's opinions were as I've seen Olds supers or 22B's that are relatively cheap compared to Xeno's or Strads. Not saying that any are particularly bad but just curious. Thanks to all that have commented!


The Olds Super is a model that had different versions over it's years of manufacture (although by and large they all looked the same). The biggest difference was in the weight of the horn. Mine is from 1947 and it is extremely lightweight. It's my understanding that in some production years the Olds Super was a lot heavier than mine.

An Olds Super in excellent condition has a value of $850 to $1,000 or so. An Olds Recording is a much better choice, it is a far superior horn.

The problem with the Conn 22B is that Conn has manufactured many different horns under that model designation so you'd have to research that to try to figure out what is being offered and whether it is a professional level horn or a student model.

The Olds Super and any Conn 22B are much different horns than a Bach Strad. The Olds Super is a lot different. I did a test with a room full of college students and out of all the horns I brought they thought the Olds Super had the least projection.

I have a 1939 Conn "New York Symphony Special" (a hand made premium version of the 22B of that era - the basic 22B was called the "New York Symphony" model) which I think was aimed in the direction if the Bach Strad but it really is a much different horn, particularly its sound which is more compact than the sound of a Bach Strad, but it is a great horn that is fun to play.

Bach Strads are reliable all around horns. If you're going to own only one horn the safest choice is a Bach Strad Model 37. A used one in excellent condition has a value of $1,250 to $1,500 or so. It's hard to go wrong with a Bach Strad as long as it's in good physical and mechanical condition. There are lots of them available and a lot of potential buyers so the resale market is good.

I've never played a Xeno so I can't comment based on any personal experience. All I can say is that the Bach Strad is a dramatically more popular horn. It seems that almost every college student has a Bach Strad. I've seen only one Xeno. So, in terms of an investment, a Bach Strad is a much safer choice.
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omelet
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Joined: 08 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is missing regarding the Xeno you have?
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VintageFTW
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Joined: 21 Apr 2016
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Location: Somewhere in the mountains of North Georgia

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do I even need to state my opinion? To me, vintage horns often have a magical, illusive quality to them, but a new horn guarantees consistency, if you are sensitive to those sorts of things. For me, I don't care about consistency because I play from the view that if I can can pick up a hose pipe and make it sound good, I can make just about anything sound good. This seems to work too, because I can play pretty much any high brass handed to me to the level of proficiency I am able. I suppose in that regard I wouldn't say I am proficient at the trumpet specifically. I would rather say I am proficient at brass playing, even though trumpet is my primary instrument.
Anyways, as for an Olds Recording, I'd give that a vote. They are pretty much all awesome horns. I've never tried a Committee though.
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1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
1922 Holton-Clarke Cornet
1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
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BGinNJ
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Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buy new, keep it until it's vintage! Or buy a late model used, from someone else who was a school band student and gave it up after college.

Vintage horns are cool, but if you're a student, not a collector or hobbyist, you may not want to deal with wear issues like sticky, worn valves, low compression, red rot, etc. What seems like a bargain could end up costing you as much as a new(er) horn.
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VintageFTW
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Joined: 21 Apr 2016
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Location: Somewhere in the mountains of North Georgia

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another good alternative to a Bach Strad in the vintage department is an early Rudy Mück. I think the Citation is the copy. Rudy Mück used extra Strad parts in the super early days of Bach because his shop was right next to the factory and Vincent Bach was a personal friend. These horns are basically New York Strads to the T, except with a leadpipe of Mück's own design. Also, the each horn was hand made by him, so there isn't massive stress in the horn due to mass production techniques. If you can find a good one, they usually range from $300 - $800, depending on condition.
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1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
1922 Holton-Clarke Cornet
1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
...And many more
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Evinerate
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Joined: 15 Nov 2016
Posts: 154

PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've owned many and many vintage trumpets over the years. Yes they all have their special characteristics and looks.

A lot of them are great players.

There are some which I can say are even better players than modern horns.
My French Besson Brevete for example, is probably the best trumpet I've ever played. It is the granddaddy of the modern B flat trumpet and since it's introduction in the early 1900s the design of these horns haven't changed much and still holds it's own well against modern horns.

The Martin Committees are an interesting horn, some play good and some play bad. The good ones have all the prized characteristics that the Committees are known for. They have a rather compact dark tone that doesn't sound too big. And the loose slotting might throw some people off when they are new to the horn and call it "bad intonation" when really all it takes is a adjustment period to control the pitch in the notes.
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