Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:22 pm Post subject: Recording sound really awful
Is it normal that in real life, my sound is clear and full, but if recorded (iPhone SE) it sounds false and forced; kinda like beginner although I’ve been playing for 6 years. And there are many people that have told me I play very nice, others than family too, so it’s hard to believe that I actually sound that bad.
Any advice?
Joined: 06 Jun 2010 Posts: 897 Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:28 am Post subject: Re: Recording sound really awful
EmYaNo wrote:
Is it normal that in real life, my sound is clear and full, but if recorded (iPhone SE) it sounds false and forced; kinda like beginner although I’ve been playing for 6 years. And there are many people that have told me I play very nice, others than family too, so it’s hard to believe that I actually sound that bad.
Any advice?
Record your practice sessions and listen to yourself frequently and make corrections in your tone quality as needed. Listen for small nuance in your playing and make correction/improvements as you deem appropriate. _________________ I rode in on a horse and can't seem to get out of L.A.
Severinsen Destino 3*
1971 Getzen Eterna 900S Severinsen Model
1984 Getzen Eterna 896 Flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special Cornet
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:45 am Post subject: Re: Recording sound really awful
EmYaNo wrote:
Is it normal that in real life, my sound is clear and full, but if recorded (iPhone SE) it sounds false and forced; kinda like beginner although I’ve been playing for 6 years. And there are many people that have told me I play very nice, others than family too, so it’s hard to believe that I actually sound that bad.
Any advice?
Either is possible. A lot will depend on where you place the phone relative to the bell, and what sort of room you're playing in. If you're in a big room, and you place the phone as far away from your bell as possible, and point the bell so it's not directly aimed at the phone... And you still sound bad... Then it's definitely time to get a good teacher to make sure you're not kidding yourself.
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:00 am Post subject:
A Zoom H1 is super cheap and gets great quality recordings. I use one to keep myself honest in the practice room. Strongly recommended. Way better sound than you'll get from your iPhone. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:20 am Post subject:
Not sure what you mean by "false" and "forced," but you should be able to get a reasonably fair recording on an iPhone. When I use one, I put it on the other side of the room and I don't point the bell directly at it.
Studio quality? Nope. But not false or forced either.
Make sure you don't block the microphone port on the phone. For example, don't set it on a music stand with the mic pointed down at the stand shelf.
I also have a Zoom H1, and it makes good recordings too, as long as you turn off the auto-level feature. I also position it and play to it the same way: across the room and don't point the bell directly at it. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Recording sound really awful
EmYaNo wrote:
Is it normal that in real life, my sound is clear and full, but if recorded (iPhone SE) it sounds false and forced; kinda like beginner although I’ve been playing for 6 years. And there are many people that have told me I play very nice, others than family too, so it’s hard to believe that I actually sound that bad.
Any advice?
Your trumpet sound may be decent, but your recording equipment and knowledge may be just a bit lacking. I personally would not trust the sound quality of an iphone recording. It may be adding distortions and artifacts due to placement, overdriving the poor built in mic, auto level, poor room acoustics, and so on. You can probably improve your low cost recording by placing the iphone across the room so that you're not playing directly into it. Also there are "recording studio" apps that you might try out. But if you really want a better recording it will be a minor investment to get a Zoom H1 or a Tascam DR05 (or equaivalent) recorder that provides much higher quality mics and recording dynamic range. These are available for under $100 if you look around.
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:47 am Post subject: Re: Recording sound really awful
EmYaNo wrote:
Is it normal that in real life, my sound is clear and full, but if recorded (iPhone SE) it sounds false and forced; kinda like beginner although I’ve been playing for 6 years. And there are many people that have told me I play very nice, others than family too, so it’s hard to believe that I actually sound that bad.
Any advice?
There's an easy and indisputable way to settle this - in your next lesson, set up your recorder the way you normally use it at home, ask your teacher to play a phrase, then play the same phrase yourself. Listen back later and see if your teacher's sound suffers from the same thing you're describing, and to what degree. I thought for a long time I sounded good in person, and recordings were just doing something funny, until one day a light bulb went on and I realized that I sounded crappy in recordings of lessons, while my teacher still sounded great, so clearly the recording wasn't the problem.
It is probably partially the equipment but also is often the case that we don't sound like we think we do. I think if you listen closely to the recording you could probably tell what is on you, and what is the equipment. Attacks, vibrato, phrasing, intonation that's pretty much all on you (although if you are clipping when playing loud then the strong attacks might sound garbled.) The tone quality not sounding quite right could very well be the equipment. In any case recording ourselves is a great, but often painful way to discover areas that we can improve in. _________________ Scodwell Boston
90's Bach Strad MLV 65GH
1950 Bach Strad 38
1969 Conn 8b Artist
1980 238 CL
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm1qCev_sfof-Bfj5MAMLrQ
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2662 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:18 am Post subject:
An iPhone will NOT give you a good idea of how you are playing, unless you position it very well and don't overload it with too much sound/volume/decibels.
There are plug in microphones which help a lot - like a Zoom iQ5. Or a stand alone device. You will still not get a god result unless you have the placement and levels right.
Another factor is to learn how to listen to a raw recording and listen past the deficiencies in it. Sort of like listening to old mono or earlier recordings. Once you do, there is a lot of information to hear.
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes...
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:14 pm Post subject:
When I was young I was always annoyed by how I sounded on recordings. Later in life after many years of lessons, I'm much less annoyed. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Ever listen to a recording of your voice? Doesn’t sound like you’d think it sounds right? Same goes for your trumpet. What we hear and what the listener hears are different for a variety of reasons.
There is good advice here about the quality of your recording equipment but even the best equipment won’t give a perfect playback of the reality of your live playing. And the way the horn sounds behind the bell is staggeringly different from the way you sound on the other end of the bell. Not to mention the way you hear yourself when playing live.
Moral of my post, is you will always be your hardest critic, and just try to improve everyday. And never be satisfied!
Phones and other miniature devices have built-in condenser microphones. These mics are easily miniaturized.
They are obviously optimized (along with their input circuitry) for voice communication.
But with small size there is a limit to the quality for recording musical sources, (and loud ones at that)
Also, condenser mics, especially cheap ones, do not handle loud sources well. Even if there is attenuation or limiting circuitry the mic can still be overdriven easily. They are especially susceptible to harsh and distorted higher frequencies.
Even decent quality recording condensers do not play well with the trumpet.
(I have an AKG C3000B that sounds GREAT on flugelhorn but AWFUL on trumpet.)
Same goes for ZOOM type recorders but they do have better quality mics and circuits for recording.
Ribbon mics LOVE the trumpet. Even a cheap Chinese-made ribbon sounds quite good.
Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Recording sound really awful
Steve A wrote:
EmYaNo wrote:
There's an easy and indisputable way to settle this - in your next lesson, set up your recorder the way you normally use it at home, ask your teacher to play a phrase, then play the same phrase yourself. Listen back later and see if your teacher's sound suffers from the same thing you're describing, and to what degree. I thought for a long time I sounded good in person, and recordings were just doing something funny, until one day a light bulb went on and I realized that I sounded crappy in recordings of lessons, while my teacher still sounded great, so clearly the recording wasn't the problem.
Yes, this is the answer. Do this. It will be a harsh reality to face, but it will be the truth. You can also look on Youtube for any low-fi recordings of other trumpeters. There are tons of videos of great players playing etudes and excerpts using their phone to record it.
I consider recordings on small equipment to be worthless.
A trumpet has a wide range of resonant frequencies different trumpets have different frequencies, some are rich and deep some are more brilliant. The cheap recording gear like iphones have very limited acoustic range.
iphones and cheap recording gear will cut off many of the tones we generate and we then sound pathetic and weak in these recordings.
The human voice is most similar to deeper frequency range instruments so two different players may sound quite different recorded in iphone. Is this recording really what we want to sound good on, or do we want to sound good to human ears.
If you are going to base your tone on recordings you had better spend some bucks getting good quality recording gear or you will likely come unstuck.
I recommend canning any ideas of recording what you sound like and instead find a practice location where you can hear yourself. An underpass a concrete wall with good acoustic performance. They exist and wont cost you a penny.
As soon as recording studios accept that you cant get better than an iphone and start recording all their bands and professionals using iphones I will accept iphones are anything but jacksh1t. Until then I will rely on my ears.
iphones and cheap recording gear will cut off many of the tones we generate and we then sound pathetic and weak in these recordings.
Among other issues the built-in mic and electronics might be passable from some things but they just can't handle the levels of a trumpet which I assume is what's causing the overloaded sound he's getting. Then there's issue of picking up a lot of "room" in the mic - it all combines to create a crappy sonic salad. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2654 Location: Anacortes, WA
Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:45 pm Post subject:
If he's hearing a crappy sound, a truly crappy sound, it isn't the recording device. A loss of certain harmonics may make it sound dull. It may make it sound flat on some notes. But it doesn't make it sound crappy. Garbage in, garbage out. _________________ Richard
You need better gear. You can try to incorporate some of the same principles used to make pro recordings which can definitely be done without spending big bucks.
They're using mics that are made to handle the sound pressure level or "SPL" of a given instrument. Those mics are going into gear that's designed to transport the the electrical signal from the mic onto either analog tape or into the digital realm. You can spend huge buckets of money in pursuit of this, or you can get really decent results from much more modest gear.
Here's a short sample of flugel recorded with some basic gear. A Marshall MXL-990 condenser mic - which I got on super sale for around $40 a few years back - going into a Studio Projects VTB-1 preamp into the line in of the computer. These are both inexpensive items that work well. You of course need to learn how to use the gear and to steer whatever recording software you're using. It doesn't have to be a computer, they make some real decent fairly inexpensive porta-studios. This was close-mic'd so you don't hear much or any of the "room" in the recording, further assisted by the fact that the gain levels on the preamp are fairly low when recording a brass instrument. I have a bit of reverb added as well.
You could also use this to just record yourself in a room, not close-mic'd. Or you can go even simpler by using the built-in mics on a handheld recorder like a Tascam DR-05. They're about $100 brand new. Here's a guy recording himself with a DR-05. Even though it's not a "studio" sound like my above audio sample because of the way it's recorded in the room, I'll bet it's in a different universe than the sound you're getting with your phone and would absolutely give you an idea of what you sound like - actually maybe even better than a studio-style recording. You can also record into it using an external mic and preamp as outlined above.
Lets talk turkey here. Phones have always used microphones that only cost a few cents or a dollar or two. A phone needs no more than the most rudimentary microphone to capture human speech satisfactorily the brain makes it sound much better than it is. It is about word recognition.
When customers want to record better sound with their iphone they buy external microphones for 7 or 8 dollars. These 8 dollar microphones give a much better response than the inbuilt microphone.
An iphone microphone is a heap of crap.
Compare your 1 dollar iphone microphone you use now to a state of the art 100 dollar microphone. There is no comparison. Get a good microphone if you want to hear reality.
Pass a beautiful sound through a heap of crap microphone and it records a heap of crap.
Joined: 10 Jan 2018 Posts: 16 Location: U.S.A., Earth
Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Recording sound really awful
Steve A wrote:
EmYaNo wrote:
Is it normal that in real life, my sound is clear and full, but if recorded (iPhone SE) it sounds false and forced; kinda like beginner although I’ve been playing for 6 years. And there are many people that have told me I play very nice, others than family too, so it’s hard to believe that I actually sound that bad.
Any advice?
There's an easy and indisputable way to settle this - in your next lesson, set up your recorder the way you normally use it at home, ask your teacher to play a phrase, then play the same phrase yourself. Listen back later and see if your teacher's sound suffers from the same thing you're describing, and to what degree. I thought for a long time I sounded good in person, and recordings were just doing something funny, until one day a light bulb went on and I realized that I sounded crappy in recordings of lessons, while my teacher still sounded great, so clearly the recording wasn't the problem.
Good luck!
OP did mention family listening to him, but I do wonder if they have the ear for such an observation. Or the heart (you know family, they don't want to be truthful if it means hurt feelings). If there's a teacher who can listen in, definitely go with that!
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