When pedal tones are not advised.

[Lionel]

It is almost a form of cognitive dissonance for me to write of those trumpets who aren't advised to practice pedals. Because at least initially they worked well for me. Within weeks I started playing really fat high F's, G's and some A's to double C. At least in practice. So from purely my own vantage point? They seem like a good idea. But having said that?

Various respected figures in the trumpet world are or were opposed to th the pedal tones
. Donald Reinhardt was most emphatically against them. In all of his books there is not one positive statement regarding them. And from probably our best online source of Doc Reinhardt's teaching, Mr Chris LaBarbera I am told that Doc was absolutely opposed to the playing of any pedal tones at all.

Interesting. As so many high note artists recommend them. Arturo for one is such a beast on just his pedal tones alone. At various times in my life Ive sported pretty decent dexterity on pedal tones. And even today I can usually get down to a triple pedal B flat. Or at least close. That and at one time I could blow the C below low C open. Played it decently. Almost so good as on my flugel horn where the pedal B flat concert pitch is a real note.

Try that pedal C open valves on your trumpet sometime! It's tough.

But I do have first hand knowledge of several trumpetz who got really screwed up by pedals. In each case the way they played trumpet resembled Reinhardt's "Type IV A" embouchure setting. More on them in a bit. First however I wanted to mention a loose quote from Bud Brisbois which I found on his tribute page over at Seeley Music dot com.

Bud, the most accurate, and absolutely the utter highest trumpet of all time mentioned that he had tried pedals "but they almost screwed me up". And these are his iwn words. Ones which I found helpful to various friends of mine. I dont teach so much as coach. I have a host of friends whom I talk chops with. One cat plays higher than me. Which isnt spectacular because Im hardly world class. Yeah I'm still working on my range but this has been a good thing. As my own range problems have helped me learn a fairly broad area of knowledge concerning high notes. And their use musically.

I like to think that if I had learned to blow better high notes when I was a teenager that I never would have learned the stuff I do now. Granted had I peaked younger this might have led to far more exciting career options. However I have supported myself solely with just my nightly trumpet playing. At least for a number of years when I was young. That and I can "sight-read a high G". Those and playing well enough in tune are my credentials. Hardly Maynard but more than most of the field.

What I wish most in life is not that I could turn you or me into the next Arturo or Faddis. But rather that far more of us could cure the aggravating

"High C/D cut-off point".

The woods are plum stocked full of these poor fellows. I think it's a darned tragedy and I would like to help change this. If it's the last thing I do before I die. As because I have usually held a nice high G throughout my career, both pro and amateur I have had so much damned fun. And all I want to do these days is share that. So I digress. Back to my own topic,

At least several fellows I've known were getting all screwed up from playing pedal tones but they never knew it. And I hope my disclaimer earlier was sufficient. I'm not opposed to practicing pedals if indeed they help you. I even blow them myself at times but they're no longer a big part of my routine. Nor even a necessary one. If I never played a pedal tone again? It wouldnt hurt my playing to any appreciable degree.

But back to my friends who got screwed up. All three are classic forward jaw "Type IVA" trumpets as defined by Dr Reinhardt. Which is also exactly the same as the Costello embouchure. Aka "Stevens-Costello" embouchure. It means that the jaw position keeps the lower teeth either even with or pushed out past the uppers. Most of these trumpets use more lower lip than upper. As is visible on the mouthpiece. Their horn angle is either perpendicular to the face or slightly above level to the ground. Ehen their heads are held straight that is.

John Faddis,
Doc Severinsen,
Cat Anderson and
Bud Brisbois are a few. Classic cases of this chop setting. Obviously it is an embouchure well known for blowing fantastic high notes. Heck I think that Wayne B blows this way too.

So a couple friends of mine from college were also classic Type IV's or IVA's etc. But both then young men were playing most inconsistently. Some good days. Able to blow double C. Or at least get a piece of it. But some really bad days too. And the more they practiced? The worse they played.

Hey, if this ever happens to you? Stop doing what you're doing. Engage in some critical thinking.

Well the first fellow decided to take his problems straight to Roy Stevens in New York City. That worked! And Roy soon had my friend popping consistent G's above double C. Sometimes triples. Fantastic! Plenty of useable range anyway. Among Roy's directives was,

"Never blow pedals".

My next college friend sort of impressed me as a strong amateur. Although not a music major like myself he was still most dedicated and had a good high F. Like I mentioned this old boy played Type IVA or the Stevens system. But he dropped out of my sight until seven years later. This when I again met him coincidentally on a street corner of the west coast.

His chops had gone to Hell and back. He could barely count on his high C. As he told me of his problems you could see the tears well up in his eyes. He felt badly and most embarrased. What he had been doing wrong however was that he had been blowing a daily rsgimen of pedal tones and most strenuous lip slurs. All for nearly the same amount of years which he had been absent from my life. He was also blowing a huge mouthpiece. It took me a while to get through to him but from my experience with number 1 college friend I finally talked him out of blowing pedals. Later he took my advice and bought a semi shallow lead trumpet mouthpiece.

His useable range almost instantly shot up to double C! It was a fantastic revelation to him.

Lastly, just the other day I finally received a picture from a young friend. Showing his chop setting. He is a picture perfect Stevens-Costello! What an eye opener for both of us too. We had been working together over the internet and phone. Trying to figure out why his range was so weak. But when I saw his photo? I thought,

"Damn it, stop the pedals!"

He did just that. And just yesterday his weak high G gained several notches in volume.

"One man's meat is another man's poison".

In each of the three cases described above the pedal tones had turned these men's chops into a constant state of swelling. Sometimes a useful condition. For trumpet players like myself anyway. At least at first. Yet for forward jaw trumpets? Whose chops are apparently sensitive to swelling? The pedal tones were anathema. In each case their removal from the practice regimen was an immediate panacea.

I have tried to compose this post without dogma. I can't say for certain that pedals will necessarily help or hurt anyone. I just do know that in the case of these three fellows that the pedal tones had stymied their progress. And I myself have used pedals. Back when first starting to blow high notes. So there is no way that anyone should infer that I am opposed to pedal tone playing. I'm merely encouraging others to at least think critically about pedal tones. In fact to engage in critical thinking re high notes and life in general is the wisest of ideas. Good luck.

PS: I would describe the negative effect of excessive pedal tone playing to be nearly the same as blowing too much trombone or euphonium prior to getting well conditioned to doubling. The damndest thing about excessive doubling is that the only time I'm bothered by blowing too much trombone is when I have not been playing any low brass instruments for a long spell. It is at these times that excessive lower brass playing is dangerous to my musicality. As I can play for hours on the trombone after Ive already lost the ability to play the trumpet at a musical level.

Thus I'm thinking that one problem posed by pedals could be eliminated by at least reducing the amount you blow. Anything to avoid overtrained, swollen chops. As it has been my experience that swollen lips vibrate poorly. That and require more effort, harder blowing and more arm pressure to work right. And in turn that these measures just make the swollen chops even worse.
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[Craig Swartz]

WOW! I use pedals ala Stamp warm up every day. I also delve into those that are lower as used in Gordon Systematic Approach.

My advice to you, or anyone else would be: if you are able to play these without a major shift in embouchure or mouthpiece set from the rest of your normal playing, have at it- you're likely doing them properly. If not, learn to play them correctly. (You may need some tutoring to learn them.) It may sound stupid to some, but I find it easiest for some to attempt them from low F to 1st pedal C on the mouthpiece first.

[Turkle]

I do pedal tones nearly every day - just a few, and I always connect them to the rest of my range by lip-slurring from pedal tones up to high C and beyond. I have adapted some ideas from Stamp into my own hybrid Schlossberg/Stamp warmup/exercise that I've used for years that includes pedal tones.

To me, pedals make the high notes seem "less high" or "closer to the midrange." So I like them very much as they seem to help me compress the perceived "distance" between my highest and lowest notes on the horn. I know that's a funny way of looking at it but that's how they impact my playing. When I warm up with pedals I can get all over the horn with minimal effort.

Like anything, they will work for some people and will ruin others. No way to know but to try them out, preferably with a competent teacher. If they don't work for you, certainly stop doing them! But if you are going to do pedals, I recommend connecting them to the rest of your range with slurs and scales so you don't get "trombone chops" from doing them.
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[brassmusician]

Thanks for sharing those thoughts, Lionel. The concept that a technique like pedal tones may not work for all players and in fact may be harmful for some is definitely pause for thought. Also linking it to embouchure type is very useful. Mouthpiece buzzing is another sometimes contentious practice, some swear by it and find it very helpful whereas other avoid it or just get by fine without it. We shouldn't assume that a particular technique will help everyone.

[Rod Haney]

I start every day with pedals and end every day with pedals. I use them for 1 reason which is to put my lips in a comfortable position in all ranges. I have no shift and play pretty straight ahead, but when I started trying to slur from double pedals to single to low to staff to above staff as high as I could go with the same setting, I found gold. The pedals seem to put the lower lip into position to get up and out when ascending. It also seems to help me form a longer appeture which allows me to add volume to upper notes and allows a full tone throughout whatever you have that day. I am also learning how to ‘squeeze” a bit when I get above comfortable range and get the tones although not the fullness or volume yet. But I feel this is going in the right direction. I have almost no movement of jaw or horn (I can detect none, but??) and this makes it easier to maintain the same lip setting throughout. I have also noticed (dont know why) that I am starting to get more cushion from the lips when pressure is added up there. Jim Manley told me the pedal tone emb. Was the perfect setting to use everywhere (unless I misunderstood) so I set aboutdoing what I could to make it happen and it seems to be paying benefit. Pedals may not work for everyone but they have certainly helped me in a lot of ways, especially in getting the knack for higher notes and fattening my tone.
Rod

[cheiden]

From what I've seen there is a way to approach pedals that bring the lips together and promotes suppleness of the vibrating surfaces. For many, this seems to benefit general development.
There are other ways of approaching pedals that spread and harden the chops. I doubt that this helps much if at all, and can sometimes hurt development.
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[Pops]

Many simply do them horribly wrong and so they get problems instead of good results.
If you don't have a secure lip setpoint and use it when doing pedals or range work then you are way more likely to cause problems.

Generally if done with a good consistent set then your high range gets louder because you learned to use the aperture tunnel and relax and keep the teeth open while doing pedals.

However; changing sets as you play prevents any of the pedal work from carrying over into the rest of your playing. You would have learned those great things on a second phony embouchure and not on your real embouchure.
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[Lionel]

I think that a lot of the potential trouble occurs from excessive practice. Or over-training. I had compared a practice situation heavily laden with pedals to spending too much time playing trombone prior to a trumpet player getting used to more and more lower brass playing.

Anything taken to excess can cause problems. The three trumpet players I had mentioned were all in a state of constant over-trained chops but had no idea that they were over doing it. So once the over training condition was treated they played great. My guess is that they probably could return to some amount of pedal tone practice. Just so long as they stopped short of over training.

In my own case I found that pedals were merely a catalyst. Something which brought my embouchure to a place where the muscle usage worked better at playing higher notes. Better at other things too. However once the pedals brought me to that point?

There was no more need for me to practice them. Although at one point I started to get pretty damned good at them. Approaching where Arturo goes. However even though I had gotten better at pedals? I saw no extra boost from them. Not in the rest of my method. So ai largely quit playing pedals.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).

[Rod Haney]

[kehaulani]

Simply put, when I was in h.s. college, and a hitch in an A.F band, I had a workable range was about high A, could hit a High C. (Good day, I could hit an Eb.)

Since using pedals (Balanced Embouchure, Maggio), I went to a workable E over High C and could hit a Double High C. FWIW.

But one size doesn't fit all. Try it and use it if it works. If it doesn't, don't feel obligated to use it.
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[TrpPro]

Lot of different ideas about pedals. FWIW here is the Caruso approach.

Use any embouchure manipulation that you want to get the notes to come out. There is no incorrect way to do this. Use all three valves down at first and it will probably make it a little easier to get started, at least down to the pedal G. Pedal G should be pretty easy in the open position. Go to normal fingerings eventually for everything.

Always follow the pedal exercise with a two + octave chromatic scale, up and down, starting on low C. Tempo should be pretty fast. Then continue playing your regular practice routines. It is very important to follow a pedal routine with normal register playing.

[Seymor B Fudd]

[gabriel127]

This seems to be a continuation of a previous thread that got axed by the mods.

Anyway, regarding the type IVA argument, I would contend that if these type IVA guys practiced pedals the right way for a long enough period of time, it would result in them actually changing their embouchures to one that would work with the pedals and for all other playing.

Regarding Brisbois yes, he was the most freakish high player around. He played higher than Maynard. But his sound? Perhaps the reason for his freakish high playing was due to a unique kind of physical structure, that may have given him a lot of "leverage" to squeeze out some freakish high notes in a very unorthodox manner. He mastered that. But his freakish chops to me sounded kind of funky. It sounded like he squeezed the notes out. It was a nasal sound in the low register and a pinched sound in the high register. I didn't care for his sound and I would not consider him as a player with the kind of versatility as Doc Severinsen. And from high C to double C, he didn't have the sound of a Maynard Ferguson.

Perhaps the fact that Brisbois couldn't play pedal tones without messing up the rest of his playing might have been proof that his embouchure was funky, wiggy, and unconventional. In other words, maybe pedal tones can serve as a diagnostic tool to demonstrate whether or not a person's embouchure has the mechanics that will allow them to play all over the horn with a great sound and with versatility.

So back to my proposal that if Brisbois practiced pedal tones long enough, maybe he could have actually changed his embouchure and improved his playing. That's something we'll never know, and for a guy that could already do things that a lot of guys couldn't do and he stayed busy in the studio doing that stuff, it doesn't give him a lot of reason to want to go backwards in order to go forward. He sounded OK on a studio mic whistling way up high and apparently, that was enough to make a career out of. If you're already making a living doing your thing, why risk that? I still go on YouTube to listen to the end-of-show theme song of "The Dating Game" to listen to him playing the thing an octave up. You listen to that and you say "that's sick!"

As far as Doc Severinsen is concerned, I have questions about that one. I used to work at a venue where Doc did a concert with Xebron back in the late 80s/early 90s. He showed up to the venue several hours early and he practiced the whole time. I heard him with my own ears doing pedal tones. Then he went out and played and incredible concert. So I question the claim that Doc didn't play pedal tones and they messed him up. They didn't mess him up that night. Maybe they only messed him up if he did them to excess? IDK.

All I can say is this: Have you ever heard millionaires say things like "If I lost all of my fortunes today and you took everything away from me, with what I've learned, I guarantee that I could become a millionaire again within a few years? Well pedal tones have kind have done that for me. Pedal tones got me to play with a great range that had eluded me for a long long time. Then, about 4 years ago, I incurred an injury in a car accident in which I lost my front teeth and had to have them replaced with a bridge. Because these new teeth were nothing like what my natural setup was, (even the bite is different) I basically had to learn how to play again. And it was pedal tones that helped me to adopt the mechanics (which are much different than they were before the accident) that would allow me to play the full range of the horn with a good sound.

I really don't know anything about the Reinhardt "types." It's all a bit complex for me and I think it gives players too much to think about. But that's the beauty of the pedal tones. If you just do the process, you don't have to think about what you're doing physically. If you just concentrate on getting the notes out with the right fingerings and getting a good sound without moving the mouthpiece around, your brain and muscle memory will do the rest subconsciously.

I really believe that if these "type IVA" players stuck with the pedal tones and practiced them correctly, they'd end up making changes or adjustments to their embouchures that would allow them to play even better than before after they get through the rough period. But if they already play well enough to make a living, then there's no need to do that. So for people in that category, fine, stay away from pedal tones if you're happy with you're playing and you think that you can do it all.

But for the rest of the people out there who have never had a range above high C or D, to me it's a no brainer. I spent a fortune on lessons, traveling to see teachers all over the country who couldn't help me (this was well before the days of Skype). As it turns out, I was my own best teacher and pedal tones were the tool that led to success.

I would caution anyone who hears a teacher tell them to not try this or that, or tells them that they shouldn't bunch their chin, etc. That's just ignorance talking and if you stick with a teacher who's trying to fit you into their mold, you're wasting your time and money. Different things work for different people and my experience has been that pedal tones are the tool that leads each individual to what works for them. That's all I'm saying. Peace!

[Clot Gorton]

I recommend finding what works for you.

[oliver king]

I've found good results through Thibaud.
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[Lionel]

One of the most interesting sites on the internet is Seeley Music. Bud Brisbois's life story is told using various interviews. People close to Bud, guys who worked in the Kenton band and Henry Msncini with him.

And deep scrolled down is Bud's quotes on why he didnt use pedals. Again Bud was among the best examples of a natural Stevens-Costello embouchure. And of these kinds of trumpets Ive never known one who did well with pedal tone studies. They may be out there but Im "batting 0.00" at finding them.

And this is the exact opposite of my own experience. For me personally pedals did help. They activated my upper register. However as soon as my upper register started to jell? I didnt need pedals anymore.

In fact I had a very perceptive teacher realuze that I was kinda using pedals as a crutch. I would get tired. My chops greatly fatigued and my middle register would turn to crap. Sounding awful. So Id blow sift pedals for five to ten minutes. Relax my chops and get them recirculated.

And soon after my middle register sounded good again. Almost like magic. But my teacher, a very wise classical trumpet of much regard told me,

"Lionel if you played more low and middle register tones you wouldnt need the pedals to get rid of the weak sound".

I think we both learned something. My distinguished professor witnessed how pedals could revive a sick set of chops. And I learned toplay a more balanced practice regimen.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).

[Robert P]

[trumpet.trader]

I don’t think playing in the pedal register helps or hurts you. There may be some perceived benefits from practicing in that register and connecting to the real registers of the horn, but I’m not convinced of that.

What I AM sure of is if you add anything to your daily warm up or practice regimen for a while, you’re gonna build that into a habit. And say one day you skip part of your warm routine that excludes spending time on pedals, you’ll proably have some negative result in your daily playing.

If using the pedal register works for you, and you’re happy with the results then stick with it. Or if after a long time you’re not making the improvements you want, maybe rethink pedals and just focus on the real playing registers of the horn

[cbtj51]

I am a Rinehardt IVA type player. Didn't know there was a type for most of my career. Higher range just clicked for me even when I was a teenager in Drum and Bugle Corps. Pedal tones were suggested by my Trumpet Teacher when I was in college as an effective "warm down" after a long gig of high playing and I routinely included that as a regular practice. I don't do that much anymore as a part of my routine apparently to no ill effect, though I hear lots of other players warmup and warm down that way. Never really thought about it much.
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[Rod Haney]

I have absolutely no idea why this helped me nor do I care. I simply followed what Manley told me (because he can do what I wanted to learn) and after some time it started to show some positive benefits. An article of faith that paid off. Some of us dont have long experience and widely traveled exposure to methods and just take our betters advice with a dose of faith. At the time I started I could not do a pedal with both lips so I tried to master that. Then I tried the slur, because if you need the same set across you need to do this. After some work it started to click. All this was from pedal c2 to c4 for awhile till it became more fluid. But when it did I started to feel a ‘grip’ inside the mp. Then I started to try to use this set all the time as it became more comfortable. After 3 months, I cant even remember the old setup. Now I dont look ahead and set for the highest note, just start with normal. I have also been doing about 15 minutes of the Cat Anderson whisper and a set of Daniels ow-eye-ow and flexibility’s. These 3 exercises seem to enforce the set I use and they are bringing benefits faster than I thought possible at this stage of comeback. Not getting that brilliant double c some of you have but a very fine hi e and a stronger and stronger hi g. With some squeaks to dbl c when the moon lines up just right. Point is that 3 months ago the c was where the e is and the g was where the dbl. c is.. Not breakthrough results but at this point pretty good for me. I think everyone should just find what works for them but as this thread point out ‘different strokes for different folks’. I dont know enough about playing trumpet to say anything but it worked for me or it didn’t. And this is working for me.
Rod