Ballerina's Dance: several breaths or as few as possible?

ttrumpett · Regular Member Joined: 14 Oct 2007 Posts: 36

This is a question about technique as it relates to breathing and articulation, using the Ballerina's Dance from Petrushka as an example.

PLEASE, before reading what I wrote below, listen to each link with your eyes closed at first, or minimize the window. This is just to prevent any bias that naturally happens when we look at something. Please, no cheating, haha.

Example One:
https://youtu.be/QbUcru2CHT4?t=17m34s

Example Two:
https://youtu.be/L7D6RixMdz4

When I saw the video of Philip Cobb taking many, many breaths during the solo it blew my mind! One of my many challenges has been taking a quick breath. I have always needed to do a ridiculous re-setting ritual before I start a note, which has made quick breaths very treacherous. In the past year I have made some very good progress to remedy my articulation deficiencies, and this video, in an extremely dorky way, gives me a lot of inspiration. I can safely assume that he could easily play it in one breath, like the Fritz Damrow example, but perhaps chooses to take many little sip breaths in order to keep the fresh air flowing, if only for a little bit.

What do you think? How do you play it? What do you do when you have to make a choice between some quick breaths and playing something for 30+ seconds in one breath? What exercises or techniques do you find helpful for taking quick breaths?-and for long passages in one breath? Do you think Simon Rattle will start a digital concert hall with LSO? (I hope so!!!!)

kehaulani · Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:04 pm Post subject:

Well, I don't think you play it in one breath just "because you can". I think the first example is more musical. In my opinion, I think one takes breaths not only because you need air but for musical phrasing, and the first example - to me - is more musical.

It's a matter of taste, though, and musical taste varies. If the soloist has a lot of musical credibility, I might defer to the second player (as a conductor) anyway.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

dstdenis · Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:07 pm Post subject:

Hi. Thanks for sharing those videos--I hadn't seen those before. They both sound great, so I can't quibble about their choices for when to take a breath! I'd sneak a breath whenever I need it to avoid getting too close to empty.

If you're having trouble with getting ready to play the first note of something, I highly recommend you work on Franquin's sound production exercises. They're basically just first-note exercises. He recognized that first notes can give trumpeters trouble, so he recommended that all of his students spend a few minutes practicing these every day to improve consistency.

I've found it helpful to sneak a quick breath through my nose if I don't have enough time for a normal breath. My first trumpet teacher would probably howl to hear me say it, because he insisted that I take all breaths through the corners of my mouth. But sneaking a quick breath through the nose can be a very helpful skill in certain situations, and now I don't hesitate to use it when necessary.
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:27 am Post subject:

I didn't watch the videos, because I know that it's possible to play this convincingly either way, and whether I happen to like one performance over the other isn't really relevant.

I play it in one breath, because that makes it easier for me. I'm 6'4", I play it on E flat trumpet, and I think I'm pretty efficient with my air use, so a lot of things happen to line up for me in that regard. And I don't like taking a lot of catch breaths if I can avoid it, so that pretty much settles it. I can play it in one breath comfortably, even at unreasonably slow tempos, and I've done it that way in auditions and performances, so I'm not worried about running out of air. I would have to work harder to make it work with multiple breaths, so I don't do that. You do what works for you.

The best case for taking multiple breaths is that if you plan to do it in one breath and start to run out of air, you may be in big trouble. So make sure you have a large margin of error if you're going to do it that way.

More broadly, I'd rather take one full breath than a bunch of little ones. I wouldn't say I use any exercises to accomplish that, but I do plan my breaths pretty carefully at times, and I make sure that if I need a full breath, I plan the previous phrases so that I take that full breath at a point where I'm getting close to empty, because I find that facilitates getting a good breath.
_________________
Richard Sandals
NBO

JoseLindE4 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791

6'3", Eb trumpet here.

I prefer multiple breaths. Quick nose breaths are pretty natural for me and don't break up the musical line FOR ME. I find it way less stressful to maintain musical intensity through catch breaths than to stay musically engaged while navigating a long breathless phrase. That passage is stressful enough. Do what best allows you to pull it off.

Danbassin · Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:38 am Post subject:

Just to add the brief note that, while tempo may be a major factor in comparing both, the two performances are made in quite different acoustics. The 'quick'/multiple breath option works best with slower tempi and in richer, more reverberant acoustics. Taking many breaths in a series of more-compressed tones (faster tempo) is dubious, but it will also be 'heard' more by the audience, as those breaks in the line are more evident in drier rooms.

And, it's all style. There are as many ways to convincingly portray this ballerina as there are ballerinas (or trumpet soloists). Another essential interpretative decision lies in one's approach to the loud trumpet calls, and the gracefully-fluid runs. Dynamic contrasts differ between the original ballet score and the 1947 Boosey edition. The choice of trumpet (and, in the videos we heard a wonderful example of the 'London School' of orchestral playing on Bbs, and the brilliantly-distinctive trumpet and orchestral sound of the Concertgebouw on a piston C trumpet) versus cornet is, of course, another major mitigating factor that can sometimes be a command performance for certain ensembles, editions....and conductors.

A favorite version of mine was captured on recording by Jeff Work (now principal trumpet of the Oregon Symphony, then principal trumpet of the Boston Philharmonic Orchestra) under Ben Zander's baton. I also got to hear this live, during my studies in Boston, and was delighted to hear a recent, impromptu performance of the excerpt at the Monette factory. Note that Jeff mentions his usual set-up for the piece: eb trumpet with a (I recall special, vintage) cornet mouthpiece - enjoy:

https://www.facebook.com/monettetrumpets/videos/10154831013436260/

And happy practicing!

-DB
_________________
Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD

Steve A · Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:09 pm Post subject:

This is probably too obvious to be helpful, but I think the last word has to be this: if you can play it as well as either Phil Cobb or Frits Damrow, you can breathe once, or many times, as you prefer, and no one is going to object.

If you're good enough at taking quick, non-disruptive breaths to do what Cobb does, and prefer that, bombs away. If not, well, there will be times that having that capacity would be helpful. Alternatively, if you can play it all well on one breath, that's good too. If not, well, there will be times that having that capacity would also be helpful.

Both are worth practicing.

dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1284

(Sorry. Some of the quotes below are not displaying correctly.)

rufflicks · Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:54 pm Post subject:

I prefer the sounds of the snare on the first example. Other than that either way works I felt the 1st example was a bit more relaxed, tempo was down slightly from the 2nd example. I think the real answer is make it yours.

Best, Jon
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips

Remember this is supposed to be fun.

minimamoralia · New Member Joined: 18 Dec 2017 Posts: 5 Location: USA

When I began to practice the Ballerina's Solo many years ago, I found that I discovered that I preferred to play it in one breath. For reasons both technical and aesthetic, playing the solo in one breath allowed me to play with a more continuous line. It also taught me the finer points of breath control and helped me to develop a more efficient approach to playing-projecting with focused resonance without overblowing, something which is all too common in many developing players.

kehaulani · Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:01 am Post subject:

A side question. Historically, is the modern player more in control of judicious use if air control than earlier and, if so, did previous composers assume in their music that the music would be separated, phrase-wise, with breathing?
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn