High School and Beyond

[Alex.Witt]

Hi,
I'm looking for direction on what high school age and college level players play on for their mouthpieces. I know typically you would start on the standard 7C or 5C but my knowledge as a secondary instructor ends there. I have played horn for 17 years and I know the effects that mouthpiece shape can have but I would like some feedback on this.

[kehaulani]

Around here, (Austin), the recommendation seems to be 3C.

Personally, I started out when 7C was the go-to beginning size and did just fine on that. (Actually in my case a Schilke 11). Presently, the 7C seems to be looked upon as on the small end. I think that's a mistake, but that's personal.

(I presently (no longer in school) play on a #5 equivalent.)
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[John Mohan]

In my opinion, both the Bach 3C and 5C are better choices for a beginner than the Bach 7C.

I think the 7C is a good mouthpiece, but...
it is rather deep and it's rim is fairly narrow. For kids that want to practice a lot each day and also perhaps want to play in a stage band in school, these two attributes are not attributes, they are hindrances.

The modern Bach 3C is actually hardly any bigger in terms of cup diameter, but the cup is much shallower relative to that diameter (it is significantly shallower than a 7C) and perhaps more important, its rim is wider and more comfortable for most players. As such, it makes a lot of sense for younger players to start on the 3C, especially if they intend to play in marching band and jazz band where a bit brighter sound is desired. Also, that comfortable rim on the 3C will likely help the diligent student to be motivated to practice more.

The 5C is a fine mouthpiece and though it also is a bit deep, it's not as deep as a 7C, and it also has a nice V-shape to it (the 7C is more U shaped), so the higher notes tend to be easier and brighter on it than on a 7C, which has much more cup volume due to it's low alpha angle off the time.

Here's some pictures to illustrate what I mean (click on the images to open them up full-size in a separate window):


https://s25.postimg.org/5lk4q7elr/Bach_5_C_red_vs_Bach_7_C_green.jpg
Bach 5C (red) vs Bach 7C (green)



https://s25.postimg.org/l71gabb67/Bach_7_C_red_vs_Bach_3_C_green.jpg
Bach 7C (red) vs Bach 3C (green)

Hope this is helpful!

Best wishes,

John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
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[zaferis]

This is a big "can of worms"..

IMO, we start with a mid-ground size mouthpiece on trumpet because it functions well for most beginners. That is not to say a Bach 7C is a beginner mouthpiece or one that should be moved away from, it's just middle of the road. Not smallish nor largish and with a moderately shaped C cup.

The next common step in the journey is to move to a larger diameter mouthpiece to gain broadness of tone, more contol or volume. Especially for those that go the collegiate route and begin to focus more and more on "legit" repertoire. Quite frankly many go too far then after a period of wrestling with large equipment, find there way back toward the middle of the road.

The size of a Bach 3C is a very common area, but with all mouthpiece sizes you will find great players using them. As big an issue that diameter can be, the rim shape, cup shape, backbore and flair as well as mass affect feel and performance. Thus, all the mouthpiece makers that occupy the currrent market.

The challenge is to find the size and shape that works for the individual player and performance needs.

I agree with many of the things Mr Mohan writes but, will disagree with the 5C / 7C comparison. I do not like the 5C for beginners - In my experience as a teacher, the lack of bite on the rim promotes a less focussed articulation and I find them deaper that a 7C which for beginners promotes dull lifeless tone. Even in Bach's description, it's mentioned that it is better for well developed embouchures (to me that's not a beginner)
If I had my drothers I'd lean toward a 6 for beginners but, I'd also have them starting on cornets too..

Good luck!
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[royjohn]

The ID of your mpc should be dictated by the size of your lips. bigger feet, bigger shoes, bigger lips, bigger mpc, no?

Phyliss Stork has an explanation of this here:
http://storkcustom.com/how-your-lips-dictate-your-mouthpiece-choice/
She points out that there is both thickness from top to bottom and thickness from inside to outside.
Perhaps the universal 7C came from the fact that a pre-puberty middle schooler has a smaller face, on average, and a 7C as a compromise, will sorta fit many of those.
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Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[trumanjazzguy]

I must reccomend some less-often used Bach mouthpieces.

For beginners, I strongly prefer the Bach 6C or 8C. Both have far more comfortable rims than the 7C, and don't punish players who may not be resting as much as is appropriate when practicing (beginners tend to practice for 30 minutes to an hour, without taking breaks, all-in-one-sitting kind of playing, which should be discouraged by teachers).

A piece that would be a great option for players entering marching band would be the W rim options of the 7 size (7CW, 7DW, and 7EW). The 3CW has a nice rim, but is rather wide and deep, a poor choice for all but the strongest physical players. If a downsize in rim size is appropriate, I must reccomend the 10.5EW, I personally play one of these in gold plate when I want a huge encompassing tone.

Unfortunately, with Bach pieces, as you go to shallower cups, you also get larger backbores, which partiallly negates the advantage of the shallower cup.

I try to get my students off Bach gear as quickly as possible. I've heard very few players who don't struggle with the antiquated designs of Bach pieces. Especially the dreaded modern 7C...uuuggh! *shudders*
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[J-Walk]

This is so personal. Trumpet is not one size fits all.

When I was a young student, my instructors moved me from 7C to 3C to 1.5C, and it took me several years beyond grad school to realize that my teeth and lips were best fitted to about a Bach 5 or 7 diameter and even smaller in the commercial realm. Bach 5 and 7 rim shapes didn’t work great, so I eventually found my way along with other brands. Pickett, ACB, Hammond, and Schilke Symphony Series are a few rim profiles that suit me so much better. I wish the old ideology of bigger is better wasn’t so prevalent. My biggest piece for orchestral playing is a Schilke M4C. Any bigger and I sound like I’m playing a flugelhorn.

Playing on rim diameters and profiles that suit my physiology make me sound the best I can sound. My sound is bigger and more vibrant now on my “middle of the road” mouthpieces than at any point in the past playing larger equipment. Conversely, I have colleagues that play the largest mouthpieces made for trumpet and sound focused and great because those mouthpieces fit them, but not because larger is better. It is because it fits their face. Fit is so important.
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A few mouthpieces that fit my face and horns

[Christian K. Peters]

Hello all,
Mouthpiece size probably should be chosen by the ambition of the student or if the kiddo is getting private instruction. Being a retired band director, most of my students got what came with the horn. So if the MP was a new Bach 7C and not some generic unstamped thing I was pretty happy. In later years, FAXX started making some decent copies, and I would recommend 5C's and 6.5 AL for my brass. Older kids would be recommended 3C/ Schilke/Yamaha 14's. But at that point they were pretty serious. I agree with what a lot of what John pointed out. For myself though, trying to come up with a perfect MP from those colored comparisons, did not help me out when it came to the actual feel and play of the MP. Theoretically, the diagrams should have made sense, but the fitting to my face did not.
Story... I participated in my alma matars alumni pep band last week. We rehearsed and in some dead time I went around the trumpet section and just talked trumpet. One freshman girl had her tuning slide out 2 full inches, and I asked her why. She told me that a clinician had her pull that far to play in tune. I noticed that her MP was pretty far down the receiver and I asked her to show me the MP. It was a Reeves 42S WITHOUT the sleeve. It was a school/student level horn. I fixed her up with a sleeve I was not using and gave her a spare 13B I had laying around, just for something a little different. The point being, that in school music settings, the director can't get to all kids and that the kids need some individual attention on a weekly basis.
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[Craig Swartz]

As far as I'm concerned, the mouthpiece one chooses should reflect the type of music being performed primarily, and changes should only be made if there is some real advantage to the performer; not the mouthpiece makers... Some rims, throats or backbores may offer an advantage to certain players but to willy-nilly make suggestions when we have no idea the actual ability of the person we are making suggestions to, nor whether he/she/it is playing in a small jazz club, lead in some high-energy band, 3rd trumpet in a community orchestra or anything in between seems incredibly naive.

The public schools trend used to be larger volume pieces as one got older, whether they could actually play or not. (I'm sure it still is in many locations.) That was/is "the trend". If, however, there is no stated reason/advantage to switch by someone who can actually make in-studio suggestions while sitting next to the player for some time, and if a fair amount of daily work on the instrument isn't happening on a regular basis, I see no reason to even hint at a change. Look at the number of mouthpieces listed in The Marketplace on this site alone. Cripes, I'm sure every one of those used pieces was purchased by someone who thought the one they now seek to unload was going to be the Holy Grail, as suggested by someone else "who knew".

[Brad361]

[razeontherock]

By now hopefully the OP feels off the hook on this question, and comfortable referring his student to a private teacher?

I will just say that Steve Patrick makes some stuff specifically for this application, and it probably works well and thus deserves a mention: Patrickmouthpieces.com

[kehaulani]

This is not to negate any of the wise postings above, but with discernment of those giving suggestions, I have been able to narrow my quest, and hence dollars spent, exploring mouthpieces. And it can easily and quickly get expensive and out of hand.

How do you know exactly what fits you best if you haven't tried some others? And the suggestions of what to try, might narrow down the quest a bit and save some shekels in the meantime.

Of course, there should be some discretion applied by the searcher or it just becomes a case of giving most weight to the suggestion last given.
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[gabriel127]

I want to scream every time I see someone recommend anything bigger in diameter than a Bach 7C. This business of putting high school and college students on bigger mouthpieces has been going from time immemorial and it is one of these "dark ages" fallacies that's still going on. The high school band directors want everyone to sound the same and they want the mouthpiece to compensate for the players for whatever reason not having good sound and articulation. So they stick them on these big mouthpieces which APPEAR to correct their problems, but they really don't. They only perpetuate the embouchure problems and they hamper the player's development.

Many teaching experts will make the assertion that if a person has their embouchure operating efficiently, they can easily play a tighter (smaller) diameter and have a sound just as big as anyone with the larger mouthpieces. And I've found that that's true to a degree. My experience has yielded that once you get smaller than let's say a Schilke 13a4a diameter, you start sounding closed and confined in the low register. But I've heard people get huge sounds on that diameter.

In Jeff Smiley's book, "The Balanced Embouchure" he talks about using a Bobby DeNicola mouthpiece with a really small diameter as a tool to force students to get some balance and efficiency going in their embouchures. They may not end up playing that mouthpiece permanently, but having to get a good sound on a small mouthpiece can cause students to make some subtle changes in their embouchures that will cause them to play more efficiently regardless of mouthpiece. So in other words, playing a big mouthpiece like a 5C or bigger can be an ENABLER, enabling people to play incorrectly and sound a little better. But in order to play on a small mouthpiece you have to be doing some basic things correctly and so it's the opposite of an enabler. It's tough love. Blame the embouchure, not the mouthpiece.

I've heard many experts say that a player should always play on the tightest (smallest) diameter on which they can comfortably play, NOT the largest. Granted, some players due to physical characteristics can not play on anything smaller than a 7C's diameter. So they don't have to go super small. But to go to something as big as a 5C, 3C, or bigger is unnecessarily making things harder for the player.

Two of the finest L.A. studio trumpet players in the country have played plain old 7Cs. One of them is deceased, but the other is still around. If it's big enough for them to perform the variety of music that they are called upon to play, that oughta tell you something.

In high school and college, I took lessons from very accomplished classical players who had me playing on a Bach 1 1/2C. In retrospect, playing on a mp that big was moronic. But they were teaching the old-fashioned principles that they were taught that like I said have been perpetuated since the dark ages. It's time to come out of the dark ages.

I will grant you that diameter is a very personal thing and what a person can be comfortable on varies from player to player, but I agree with the assertion that a person should strive to play as efficiently as possible and use the smallest diameter mouthpiece that they can comfortably play on.

[kehaulani]

Well, I never really liked the Bach, so I switched to a Schilke 11 which has a much more (for me) comfortable rim, while being the basic same size.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Al Innella]

I didn't know that certain mouthpiece sizes were for certain age players.

[Brad361]

[Al Innella]

Hi Brad,

I know that,but it always amazes me how many people still think you have to have to go bigger as you get older. You should only change mouthpiece size for comfort or sound etc.,not because you're now at that "age".

[chef8489]

I think it should be based on your sound and lips. My progression was from 7c to 5b as my directors wanted us to go that rout to a 3b and eventually a 1 1/2b as I was and am primarily a symphonic and pops player. Even for Jazz band in school I used these pieces.

[Brad361]

[coraltrpt]

I like to start students on a Bach 3C, as opposed to the 7C. It's a good baseline mouthpiece to work on the fundamentals of creating a full buzz. And they can grow into it - later on they can take those fundamentals to whatever setup they feel works best. I feel like its a good middle ground.