• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Air Speed VS Air Strength


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Pedagogy
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Alex.Witt
New Member


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 5
Location: Miami FL

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:42 am    Post subject: Air Speed VS Air Strength Reply with quote

I've been studying with Richard Todd and we have gotten into the area of air. I know that this can be a hot topic issue but I'm curious about teaching this concept to younger students. Let me know what sort of ideas or methods you have used on your students.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TKSop
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1437
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect the answer is "it depends which one makes the student do it correctly" in the sense that it matters more that the instruction achieves it's desired effect than it does which word you use...

For me, personally, air "focus" works well, but it might not for everyone.

Some might hear "air strength" and start tanking up and overblowing; some might take "air speed" to mean blowing harder to create speed; etcetc.

The benefit of individual tuition is that a good teacher can tailor the approach to get the best results from you...
... To look for hard and fast rules is, almost by definition, to play the percentages and accept occasional misinterpretation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9347
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the best thing to do is to keep it simple, especially for younger players. Have the player say ah and eee and tell the player to pay attention to how their tongue moves to make these sounds.

Then, have the player whistle from a low pitch to a high pitch and again, have the student pay attention to the tongue movement.

Now, have the player do the same, buzzing a mouthpiece (low to high and back and forth), and again, tell the student to pay attention to how the tongue moves, and also tell the student to pay attention to how they need to blow harder to reach the higher pitches. With the mouthpiece introduced and the prerequisite formation of an embouchure, the teacher should also advise the student to pay attention to his or her lips and how they move to create a good, free vibration in the different registers.

Now have the student slur from a lower note to a higher note on the horn and again, tell the student to pay attention to how the tongue moves, and also, to pay attention to how one needs to blow harder for higher pitches.

At this point, advise the student that anytime they are playing flexibility exercises or slurring between intervals, they should notice and pay attention to how they move their tongue (arching up and forward) and blow harder for higher notes, and flatten the tongue and blow softer for the lower notes.

That's all that needs to be discussed. Talking about air speed is really not necessary, and to be honest, I'm not 100% convinced the actual velocity of the air passing through the lips is faster for higher notes (though I think it is). It doesn't matter if it is or isn't. What matters is for the student to learn the general movements of the tongue, (slight) movements of the lips, and changes in supplied air pressure when moving between various pitches on a brass instrument, and then, through proper, routine practice, to gain the knack, or feel of specifically how to do it.

I see you recently joined, and then made exactly 5 short posts in just eight minutes. I sure hope you don't turn out to be just another person who thinks that'll provide easy access to selling things in our Marketplace (which requires just 5 posts to participate as a seller). Because if so, you'll find out just like the others that try to do that, that no one will buy from you (hot newsflash: There's a Schilke E3L-4 in new condition that was listed on the marketplace last summer by a 5-poster-and done type for a fantastically low price - and it still hasn't sold).

Just did a little research. Are you Alex Witt the French Horn player from University of Florida? If so, that's a pretty heavy-duty audition you had to perform for the Frost School of Music!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1JpiY-4LpA

Best wishes,

John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, Color Purple, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Billy B
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 5382
Location: Des Moines

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sing loudly.
_________________
Bill Bergren
Obstacles are what appear when you take your eye off of the goal.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9347
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
...I see you recently joined, and then made exactly 5 short posts in just eight minutes. I sure hope you don't turn out to be just another person who thinks that'll provide easy access to selling things in our Marketplace (which requires just 5 posts to participate as a seller). Because if so, you'll find out just like the others that try to do that, that no one will buy from you (hot newsflash: There's a Schilke E3L-4 in new condition that was listed on the marketplace last summer by a 5-poster-and done type for a fantastically low price - and it still hasn't sold)...


Well, it turns out Alex Witt just wasted our time.

https://www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=102686&s=Custom-Built-Harrelson-Bravura-Jazz-Trumpet--Bb-

Another one...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
TKSop
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1437
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
...I see you recently joined, and then made exactly 5 short posts in just eight minutes. I sure hope you don't turn out to be just another person who thinks that'll provide easy access to selling things in our Marketplace (which requires just 5 posts to participate as a seller). Because if so, you'll find out just like the others that try to do that, that no one will buy from you (hot newsflash: There's a Schilke E3L-4 in new condition that was listed on the marketplace last summer by a 5-poster-and done type for a fantastically low price - and it still hasn't sold)...


Well, it turns out Alex Witt just wasted our time.

https://www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=102686&s=Custom-Built-Harrelson-Bravura-Jazz-Trumpet--Bb-

Another one...


On the plus side... Even questions that have been done to death are searched for by visitors armed with Google.

So our answers might be wasted on the OP, but they'll probably help someone at some point (and we'll probably never know it)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trumpet56
Veteran Member


Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Posts: 492

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Air Strength to me means the volume and velocity of the air needed to overcome the resistance of the mouthpiece and trumpet to make the sound. If we use to much strength the sound will be harsh so its finding the balance with soft practice. The Air Speed is the velocity of the air we need to maintaining the pitches.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kevin_soda
Veteran Member


Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 195
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iím surprised none of the regular skeptics called this guy out before he posted in the marketplace...
_________________
Kevin

Bach 37/25
Calicchio r3/7
F. Besson/Kanstul MEHA C
Burbank Trumpet A/Bb Piccolo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9347
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevin_soda wrote:
Iím surprised none of the regular skeptics called this guy out before he posted in the marketplace...


Perhaps I haven't earned the rank of regular skeptic yet, but I did point out his exactly five posts just 33 minutes after he started this topic thread with his fifth post. And I believe I beat his marketplace posting by 4 minutes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 3217
Location: Texas, by way of Germany and Hawaii

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Perhaps I haven't earned the rank of regular skeptic yet. . "

LOL!
_________________
If you haven't lived it, you can't blow it.

"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis." Chet Baker

Benge 3X
Martin Committee (1956)
Connstellation 38B (1959)
Hans Hoyer G10 French Horn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gabriel127
Veteran Member


Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 117
Location: Southern U.S.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whomever it is in that audition, he needs to pull in his tuning slide. --FLAT!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kevin_soda
Veteran Member


Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 195
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
kevin_soda wrote:
Iím surprised none of the regular skeptics called this guy out before he posted in the marketplace...


Perhaps I haven't earned the rank of regular skeptic yet, but I did point out his exactly five posts just 33 minutes after he started this topic thread with his fifth post. And I believe I beat his marketplace posting by 4 minutes.


Ha! Nice work!🤪 I have to admit that I didnít read your entire first post on this thread because it seemed to reasonable and honest to be skeptical.
_________________
Kevin

Bach 37/25
Calicchio r3/7
F. Besson/Kanstul MEHA C
Burbank Trumpet A/Bb Piccolo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 5531
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a regular skeptic here (I think!😎), I would almost prefer that a five-post-buy-my-horn guy post something more obviously inane, at least people would not waste their time with detailed thoughtful responses like John did.

Brad
_________________
"I always try but, not always, because the horn is mercy-less, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pete
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2001
Posts: 1617
Location: Western Massachusetts

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
...I see you recently joined, and then made exactly 5 short posts in just eight minutes. I sure hope you don't turn out to be just another person who thinks that'll provide easy access to selling things in our Marketplace (which requires just 5 posts to participate as a seller). Because if so, you'll find out just like the others that try to do that, that no one will buy from you (hot newsflash: There's a Schilke E3L-4 in new condition that was listed on the marketplace last summer by a 5-poster-and done type for a fantastically low price - and it still hasn't sold)...


Well, it turns out Alex Witt just wasted our time.

https://www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=102686&s=Custom-Built-Harrelson-Bravura-Jazz-Trumpet--Bb-

Another one...


Fortunately, most of us are here to be friendly and helpful.

Pete
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Don Herman rev2
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 8229
Location: Monument, CO

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The irony is that by posting the link to the OP's horn in multiple threads John is doing more advertising for him as well as spending more of our time...
_________________
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RussellDDixon
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 574
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scooter said air compression ...
_________________
Yamaha YTR 8340EM Trumpet
Yamaha 631 Flugelhorn
Patrick 12C mouthpiece
Patrick MF 1 mouthpiece
http://www.TrumpetPerformanceTips.com - NEW WEBSITE
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9347
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
The irony is that by posting the link to the OP's horn in multiple threads John is doing more advertising for him as well as spending more of our time...


I don't think so. Calling him out as an untrustworthy person is not what I would call advertising for him. And by calling him out, I am preventing people from wasting their time trying to help a person that doesn't really seek help here. Yes, a few moments are spent reading what I wrote, but that takes a lot less time then writing replies in good faith to someone who is just taking advantage of the website. And after finding out the true intent of the offender, if folks want to answer his questions so that others with similar (but true) concerns can be helped, that's just great. But this way everyone is informed.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9347
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RussellDDixon wrote:
Scooter said air compression ...


Air compression is definitely required.

I am not convinced we really move air faster when playing high notes. When we emulate what we do to play high notes without a horn on our face (blowing hard and arching our tongue up and forward) of course, the air that comes flying out of our mouthpiece is in a thin, very fast jet like stream. But that doesn't prove that the air also passes through the lips at a very fast rate when playing a high note. It might, but then it would have to be a very, very thin stream of air because as we all know, hardly any air moves through the horn when playing high notes, compared to when playing low notes. We all run out of air much quicker when playing low notes than when playing high notes of similar sound volume.

What is clear to me is that to play high notes we must generate a lot of air pressure (aka compression) with our muscles of expiration (the blowing muscles) and we need to arch our tongues up and forward to make the extreme high notes happen.

Whether the arching of the tongue is speeding up the air, or whether the arching of the tongue is concentrating the air into a thinner stream acting on a smaller area of the embouchure, or whether it is doing both these things, it is not required to know for sure.

As long as one practices the correct material for a long enough time for the desired development to occur, keeping in mind while practicing that in general we arch our tongues and blow stronger for higher notes, the upper range will grow. That's been my experience and that of my students.

Cheers,

John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Pete
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2001
Posts: 1617
Location: Western Massachusetts

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Don Herman rev2 wrote:
The irony is that by posting the link to the OP's horn in multiple threads John is doing more advertising for him as well as spending more of our time...


I don't think so. Calling him out as an untrustworthy person is not what I would call advertising for him. And by calling him out, I am preventing people from wasting their time trying to help a person that doesn't really seek help here. Yes, a few moments are spent reading what I wrote, but that takes a lot less time then writing replies in good faith to someone who is just taking advantage of the website. And after finding out the true intent of the offender, if folks want to answer his questions so that others with similar (but true) concerns can be helped, that's just great. But this way everyone is informed.


Agreed!

Pete
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andy Del
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2006
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to be a new sport: look for the new guy and hound him if he does anything so rude as to follow the guidelines of the site WRT selling on the marketplace.

The noisy ones all appear miss two rather important points.

1. While the marketplace has brought someone in, they may well prove to be a useful and productive member in time.

2. The horn they are selling may be the horn you have waited for for years! There's no reason to think they are not trustworthy.

Catch is, all the net nannies doing the calling out are also discouraging new members from becoming more involved. Don't forget you were new once, too.

cheers

Andy
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Pedagogy All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group