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Small Hands Besson 928 Trigger Use?



 
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mncorrado
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:01 pm    Post subject: Small Hands Besson 928 Trigger Use? Reply with quote

My 13 year old daughter has very small hands. How do most people with small hands work the triggers effectively on a 928? She does not yet have a 928 but there is one I might be able to get my hands on at a reasonable price used.

Any ideas about hand positions or possibly any mods that would potentially help her in moving the triggers?

Thanks!
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi mncorrado

Although obviously an adult and not a child, I have very tiny child sized hands, around the size I believe of a ten year old.

Personally I cannot reach the third trigger of the Besson Sovereign or any cornet for that matter with a 3rd trigger. I have a feeling that the trigger of my Yamaha Xeno is even further away than on the Besson Sovereign, but I digress. There are basically two options, the first is a modification to the length of some of the trigger parts to move the lever closer, which since the trigger mechanism is not part of the body of the cornet, can always be put back to how it was, via replacement parts if the original parts are altered. Without having a Besson Sovereign to hand, I cannot explain exactly what needs doing, but from a quick look at my Yamaha Xeno, it appears to be a case of shortening or replacing the rod at the bottom, so that the top of the level ends up closer to the valve block. I'm not sure however whether this is something which most brass techs are able to do, or whether you need someone with metal work skills. I needed the angle of a trumpet 1st trigger altered owing to the lever preventing me from getting my right thumb under the leadpipe for when I wanted to hold my trumpet one handed when using mutes. A clock repairer trumpet playing colleague, did the work for me. In this case, it mean lengthening the rod to alter the lever angle, which he did by attaching an extra portion via a screw thread, which now means that the rod length and lever angle are now adjustable, and re-drilling the hole for the screw on the end of the extra portion.

Another alternative, which is the one I use with my Yamaha Xeno, is to simply use the 1st trigger instead, since the notes for which the 3rd trigger is predominantly used, bottom D, bottom C# etc, also use the first valve.

Only the other day, someone asked me why I didn't have the 3rd slide trigger mechanism adjusted for my small hands, and I replied that I'd never really thought about it, since I cannot extend the third slide on my trumpets either, which have a fixed third finger ring, without taking my whole hand off the valve block, so have got used to a combination of using the 1st trigger/saddle and lipping.

I hope that this will help.

Best wishes

Lou
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roynj
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think having the trigger moved a bit closer to the valve block is the way to go, as Lou has suggested. Also, keep in mind that Besson for some odd reason puts very stiff springs on their triggers. I imagine those with smallish hands might prefer softer spring tension. These springs could be replaced with lower tension ones when the work is done to move the trigger.

The only problem of using just the 1st slide trigger is that it has a pretty short throw and therefore will not be suitable for adjusting some of the trouble notes, like the low C# and low D, which may need a bit more throw distance to come into tune.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
Hi mncorrado

Although obviously an adult and not a child, I have very tiny child sized hands, around the size I believe of a ten year old.

Personally I cannot reach the third trigger of the Besson Sovereign or any cornet for that matter with a 3rd trigger. I have a feeling that the trigger of my Yamaha Xeno is even further away than on the Besson Sovereign, but I digress. There are basically two options, the first is a modification to the length of some of the trigger parts to move the lever closer, which since the trigger mechanism is not part of the body of the cornet, can always be put back to how it was, via replacement parts if the original parts are altered. Without having a Besson Sovereign to hand, I cannot explain exactly what needs doing, but from a quick look at my Yamaha Xeno, it appears to be a case of shortening or replacing the rod at the bottom, so that the top of the level ends up closer to the valve block. I'm not sure however whether this is something which most brass techs are able to do, or whether you need someone with metal work skills. I needed the angle of a trumpet 1st trigger altered owing to the lever preventing me from getting my right thumb under the leadpipe for when I wanted to hold my trumpet one handed when using mutes. A clock repairer trumpet playing colleague, did the work for me. In this case, it mean lengthening the rod to alter the lever angle, which he did by attaching an extra portion via a screw thread, which now means that the rod length and lever angle are now adjustable, and re-drilling the hole for the screw on the end of the extra portion.

Another alternative, which is the one I use with my Yamaha Xeno, is to simply use the 1st trigger instead, since the notes for which the 3rd trigger is predominantly used, bottom D, bottom C# etc, also use the first valve.

Only the other day, someone asked me why I didn't have the 3rd slide trigger mechanism adjusted for my small hands, and I replied that I'd never really thought about it, since I cannot extend the third slide on my trumpets either, which have a fixed third finger ring, without taking my whole hand off the valve block, so have got used to a combination of using the 1st trigger/saddle and lipping.

I hope that this will help.

Best wishes

Lou


Not sure how well the 'use first instead' method would work on a sovereign?
Iirc the 1st trigger on Yamaha's throws further than the slide quite a bit further than the one on a sovereign - would 1st trigger alone manage for even D let alone C# on a sovereign?
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

roynj wrote:

The only problem of using just the 1st slide trigger is that it has a pretty short throw and therefore will not be suitable for adjusting some of the trouble notes, like the low C# and low D, which may need a bit more throw distance to come into tune.


TKSop wrote:

Not sure how well the 'use first instead' method would work on a sovereign?
Iirc the 1st trigger on Yamaha's throws further than the slide quite a bit further than the one on a sovereign - would 1st trigger alone manage for even D let alone C# on a sovereign?


Hi roynj and TKSop

I'm just not sure regarding the Sovereign, not having spent much time on one despite having owned three over the years. The 1st trigger throw on Xeno extends far enough for D in my opinion but not quite far enough for C#. Rarely playing long bottom C#s on the solo cornet part in brass bands, I feel that I can get by with the first trigger + lipping. Although I really like a first trigger, I prefer a ring for the third slide, since I can at least take my hand off to extent the slide, which seems easier for me than trying to alter my grip to use a trigger which is too far away. Personally, I also prefer either a saddle and ring, or two triggers, rather than the 1st trigger and 3rd ring system of my Bach 184ML cornet, as I prefer to be moving both a ring and saddle out or moving two trigger levers in. Pushing a 1st trigger lever forward whilst also extending a third slide ring forward, doesn't feel right to me, as I know that the two slides are extending in opposite directions. Maybe this is just something I need to get my head round.

Best wishes

Lou
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flogging a dead horse as usual here but I still wonder why more instrument makers didn't just put a trigger on the main tuning slide like my old York Eminence. Push it halfway and it fixes the low D and all the way fixes the low C sharp. Plus valve position doesn't enter into the equation. Why don't all makers just do that? It seems a superior fix to the whole problem. Solid grip and just a moving thumb.
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mncorrado
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the planets aligned and the 928 in on the way to my location. I just hope it is not too beat up and plays well. I suspect it is fine.

I just need to find somebody to modify the triggers for me here (USA). Ideally someone that will take on the project, will do a nice job, and can get the cornet back to me within 4-6 weeks. Any ideas?

Both of my daughters will be sharing the cornet. The oldest is almost 14 and is in the 8th grade. She is a good player. Two octave range on the C scale and can double and triple tongue. She studies privately with her former elementary band director who has a masters degree in trumpet performance. She is good teacher and understands music is not the complete center of the universe for either girl. She also is accepting that my daughter's really enjoy the cornet and don't have much interest in switching over to trumpet. That was part of the reason of upgrading from the Olds Ambassadors they play. My 11 year old is not as musically gifted but a decent player. She also takes private lessons.

The girls have played on Dennis Wick 4BW mouthpieces from the beginning. It seems to work well for them. Their tone is clear and open. My plan is to see how the 4BM works on the 928 and adjust if needed.

The Ambassadors will still be used. Those will continue to be their primary instruments at school. They are in sports after school and hauling instruments back and forth would be beyond a nightmare. The 928 will be used for home practice and of course for their private lessons.

It has been quite an experience for me. As a former elementary band director and someone with a masters degree in music education I am just glad the girls are finding their way musically. There already has been a small bit of push-back from the middle school band director gently asking my daughter about switching to trumpet. I suspect the logic behind it is pretty lame at best. It is akin to saying students can only play euphoniums instead of baritones due to timbre issues. I have been on the music curriculum review team as a parent in the school district for a few years now. I am not a parent from hell but they know not to challenge me on curricular issues. The school district is a first ring suburb in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area in Minnesota. Over 50% of the students in the school district are disadvantaged enough to get free meals at school. I had one of the high school band directors say that students would literally quit the band program if they were looser with the strict balanced instrumentation policy they have. That the students in the high school band can tell the difference in the sound of the ensemble between having 6 vs. 8 or 9 trumpets in a band. Give me a break... they have nothing to compare it to and for 97% of the students playing in a band ends when they graduate as seniors.

Sorry! Totally off on a tangent.

Anyway the 928 is coming and I would love some suggestions on where I can send it for some TLC related to the trigger mods.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mncorrado wrote:
Well the planets aligned and the 928 in on the way to my location. I just hope it is not too beat up and plays well. I suspect it is fine.

Hi mncorrado

Congratulations on finding the cornet which you are looking for.


I just need to find somebody to modify the triggers for me here (USA). Ideally someone that will take on the project, will do a nice job, and can get the cornet back to me within 4-6 weeks. Any ideas?

Sorry, no ideas owing to me being based in the UK.

Both of my daughters will be sharing the cornet. The oldest is almost 14 and is in the 8th grade. She is a good player. Two octave range on the C scale and can double and triple tongue. She studies privately with her former elementary band director who has a masters degree in trumpet performance. She is good teacher and understands music is not the complete center of the universe for either girl. She also is accepting that my daughter's really enjoy the cornet and don't have much interest in switching over to trumpet. That was part of the reason of upgrading from the Olds Ambassadors they play. My 11 year old is not as musically gifted but a decent player. She also takes private lessons.

The girls have played on Dennis Wick 4BW mouthpieces from the beginning. It seems to work well for them. Their tone is clear and open. My plan is to see how the 4BM works on the 928 and adjust if needed.

The Denis Wick 4BW mouthpieces will be fine on the 928 Sovereign.

The Ambassadors will still be used. Those will continue to be their primary instruments at school. They are in sports after school and hauling instruments back and forth would be beyond a nightmare. The 928 will be used for home practice and of course for their private lessons.

Although I can understand your reasons for this, I'm not sure that it is completely wise owing to the short model 928 Sovereign playing very differently to the American-style Olds Ambassador, partly owing to one being a short model cornet and the other an American-style cornet, and partly owing to the Besson 928 Sovereign being very much a British Brass Band-style short model cornet, and playing as such, more so than for example in my opinion, a Bach 184ML short model cornet (I played a Bach 184ML as my primary horn for almost twenty years, and have owned three Sovereigns. My first cornet was a band issued American-style Olds Special with the same wrap as the Ambassador). I fully appreciate that youngsters often use one trumpet for marching and one for concerts etc., but in my experience, trumpets vary less in their playability than cornets, especially when you are comparing a British Brass-band style short model cornet such as the Besson 928 Sovereign with the Olds Ambassador.

Although I personally own three cornets, the Bach, a Yamaha Xeno and a Boosey and Hawkes Imperial, I play just the Yamaha Xeno, for consistency reasons, whereas I happily switch between two different trumpets. I therefore at least practice what I preach. Obviously however you need to do what you think is best for your girls.


It has been quite an experience for me. As a former elementary band director and someone with a masters degree in music education I am just glad the girls are finding their way musically. There already has been a small bit of push-back from the middle school band director gently asking my daughter about switching to trumpet. I suspect the logic behind it is pretty lame at best. It is akin to saying students can only play euphoniums instead of baritones due to timbre issues. I have been on the music curriculum review team as a parent in the school district for a few years now. I am not a parent from hell but they know not to challenge me on curricular issues. The school district is a first ring suburb in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area in Minnesota. Over 50% of the students in the school district are disadvantaged enough to get free meals at school. I had one of the high school band directors say that students would literally quit the band program if they were looser with the strict balanced instrumentation policy they have. That the students in the high school band can tell the difference in the sound of the ensemble between having 6 vs. 8 or 9 trumpets in a band. Give me a break... they have nothing to compare it to and for 97% of the students playing in a band ends when they graduate as seniors.

Sorry! Totally off on a tangent.

No worries, and I fully understand what you are saying.

Anyway the 928 is coming and I would love some suggestions on where I can send it for some TLC related to the trigger mods.

Hopefully US posters will give you some suggestions/recommendations.

Take care

Lou

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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
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Bach Strad 184ML
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- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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mncorrado
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still don't have the cornet but it is on the way. It seems the idea of the shortening the connection rods might be the ticket.

I wanted to see if my methodology related to this might be on the right track. Remember I am a euphonium player and I don't play on a full compensating horn.

So once I get the cornet I was going to have the girl's instructor play on it of course. Have them go through the paces and etc. Determine how much deflection they need on the triggers to get things in tune. Of course they play trumpet... not sure how much that will matter. In addition of course to playing on a trumpet mouthpiece. She obviously will change out to what the girls use for play testing though.

Then what I was hoping to do is have the girls play the cornet and get a sense of how much deflection is needed from pressing the triggers to get those problematic pitches in tune using a tuner.

My basic idea is find out how much deflection the instructor needed to get the problematic pitches in tune and see how much deflection on the triggers the girls needed. I will record both measurement.

Every player is different of course but I am wondering how much deflection "most" people need on those slides?

I figure if push comes to shove perhaps adjusting with the lip as they do now and with just a hint of deflection on the slides will drastically improve where they are not intonation wise on their Ambassador cornets. Obviously I doubt it could be worse.

That being said... my older girl has a good ear and slowly has been adjusting/lipping those problematic pitches into tune.

I figure if I have two sets of data and they are widely different my hope is to at least split the different or get as close as possible to what the instructor got deflection wise. Remember these are students. They are not even thinking of being college music majors after high school. I suspect most students at their high school are mostly clueless to intonation anyway. They just throw out their slides because someone told them to without "hearing" the difference.

Anyway...thoughts if this seems like a decent plan?
Jeff
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi - Starting with your final question - no. In short, your girls' teacher may or may not lip notes into tune and use minimal trigger - if the right amount is even possible on those cornets. (some versions have very limited first valve movement)

Shortening the 'connecting rods' will further limit the travel of the triggers, which is moving in a self defeating direction. Making your kids lip notes into tune isn't an optimal solution either, as manipulating the pitch is going to effect tone, ease of playing, security etc.

If you do 'split the difference' on slide movement, then you are not going to get the instrument into tune, only part way, so I would suggest this is a pointless exercise.

To me, the far better solution wold have been to find an instrument with fixed ring slide adjusters, and have them moved inwards to suit smaller hands. It's a much easier path to navigate and the potential engineering issues are far, far smaller.

cheers

Andy

mncorrado wrote:
I still don't have the cornet but it is on the way. It seems the idea of the shortening the connection rods might be the ticket.

I wanted to see if my methodology related to this might be on the right track. Remember I am a euphonium player and I don't play on a full compensating horn.

So once I get the cornet I was going to have the girl's instructor play on it of course. Have them go through the paces and etc. Determine how much deflection they need on the triggers to get things in tune. Of course they play trumpet... not sure how much that will matter. In addition of course to playing on a trumpet mouthpiece. She obviously will change out to what the girls use for play testing though.

Then what I was hoping to do is have the girls play the cornet and get a sense of how much deflection is needed from pressing the triggers to get those problematic pitches in tune using a tuner.

My basic idea is find out how much deflection the instructor needed to get the problematic pitches in tune and see how much deflection on the triggers the girls needed. I will record both measurement.

Every player is different of course but I am wondering how much deflection "most" people need on those slides?

I figure if push comes to shove perhaps adjusting with the lip as they do now and with just a hint of deflection on the slides will drastically improve where they are not intonation wise on their Ambassador cornets. Obviously I doubt it could be worse.

That being said... my older girl has a good ear and slowly has been adjusting/lipping those problematic pitches into tune.

I figure if I have two sets of data and they are widely different my hope is to at least split the different or get as close as possible to what the instructor got deflection wise. Remember these are students. They are not even thinking of being college music majors after high school. I suspect most students at their high school are mostly clueless to intonation anyway. They just throw out their slides because someone told them to without "hearing" the difference.

Anyway...thoughts if this seems like a decent plan?
Jeff

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GordonH
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to agree with Andy. I have small hands (short fingers) and struggle a bit with the Besson triggers. My cornet has a main tuning slide trigger activated by the thumb but this does not help as changing from one adjusted note to a non adjusted note means having to get the trigger in very quickly unlike a first valve trigger.

I hold my cornet with my smallest two fingers round the third valve trigger lever. It is the only way I can use it.

To get my small hands in perspective, my longest finger is three inches long. I can barely stretch round the fret board of a guitar.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi GordonH

Since I have a ruler on my desk in front of me, I measured my longest finger and it is just over 2.5 inches, which is probably not surprising as I am female and have small hands even for a female. What makes things more difficult in my case, is also my disproportionately short thumbs (I also have short big toes, my 2nd and 3rd toes are longer than my big toe, which no doubt is owing to the same gene), which tends to the rotate the hand so that the thumb comes up and the fingers move down and even further away from the third trigger. I cannot hold the 3rd trigger even as you hold yours. I've just tried lol since my cornet is to hand.

I think as Andy says, the best option for smaller hands is either an adjustable third ring, which obviously is more common on student instruments for the reason that students often are children with smaller hands, or moving a fixed ring closer. Since mncorrado has already bought the Sovereign, I think that it will be a case of altering the trigger, or extending the 1st slide as much as possible and lipping the rest.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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mncorrado
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps I have gone off the deep end on this. Yup, I totally get that using a ring that is adjustable would work better.

Rings are mostly fitted to student model instruments. The whole idea was finding a 928 at a decent price for my oldest daughter that needs to move up from a student model. That has now been accomplished.

I think we all can agree that moving from an Olds Ambassador to the 928 should be an upgrade. The cornet was built in 1999 according to the serial number.

I have found a couple of repair/restoration technicians that are open to working with me to see what might be possible to accommodate small hands.

It is not the end of the world if the 3rd valve slide is only partially functional, or not at all. It seems Louise has overcome the small nature of her hands. We as musicians all cope with a deficiency of one sort or another. Also remember the cornet will be used by a going on 14 year old 8th grade student. Music is just part of her whole. It does not define her nor is it something she is extremely passionate about. She just enjoys it.

There were/are weaknesses in my Yamaha 321-s euphonium that I got when I was in 8th grade. I was able to over come those and used it through graduate school attending a Big-Ten University decades ago. Sure I always thought about upgrading to a fully compensating Besson euphonium. Though for me it just was not worth the cost for what I would get out of it as a musician. My instructors and music professors never told me I needed to upgrade my horn or that my playing was lacking because of it.

While there have been great suggestions about other cornets that might be easier to use it is what it is. I appreciate the feedback and suggestions. I have been looking at a number of cornets online for the last 18 months and locally. This 928 popped up and our family finances were able to handle it at this moment. Any other month or week and perhaps it would not have have happened.

Perhaps my point is how good of an instrument does one really need? I guess everyone has to answer that on their own terms. In this case the 928 "probably" is more than enough cornet for my girls. Even with perhaps without the ability to fully utilize the 3rd valve slide trigger. It still is better than what they currently use. I suspect once they are done with high school they will not be lamenting what might have been or that somehow they did not reach their potential due a partially functional 3rd valve slide trigger.

It seems perhaps something can be done to mitigate the small hands issue. Of course there were other options available in choosing a different instrument. Unfortunately play testing a bunch of different cornets was not possible. The finances, availability, and reality of the secondary market also were in play.

So in the end I likely will have something done to mitigate the small hands issue. Will it be perfect? No idea. Will it be better than what likely exists... yes. Something is better than nothing. If I asked the band students at the local high school to each give me 3 different alternative fingerings, or slide positions and a couple of reasons why one would use them... I suspect most would not have a clue what I am talking about. So my small journey related to the cornet triggers seems pretty small in the grand scope of things.

Once things get sorted out one way or another I will have to give everyone an update. I do appreciate all of the comments and suggestions... they all have been helpful.

Jeff
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to make sure you're not misnunderstanding, rings on slides are NOT a sign of a lower quality instrument. At all. Adjustable 3rd valve rings, usually, are found on student instruments, so smaller hands can get into the ring and hold the valve casing in a functional manner.

Triggers? They are an option on most high end instruments. some, for reasons unknown, have this as their only option, like whatever they are called these days 'Sovereign' cornets. The ones I used in the dim dark past functioned, but were not all that good. I would have preferred simple rings, fixed to the slides.

Good luck getting it to work, I hope it's an easy fix...

cheers

Andy
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mncorrado wrote:
It seems Louise has overcome the small nature of her hands. We as musicians all cope with a deficiency of one sort or another.


Hi Jeff

I suppose since hand size is what it is, and my hands have never been any bigger and were never going to grow, since I started playing brass at aged 20, after having previously played Flute (which I still play to a small extent) from 12 and Recorder from 6, I just got on with it, and have done my best to manage with the tools at my disposal.

All the best

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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