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How did the notes come to you?


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INTJ
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heavy days/light days on extreme range work does make sense. One thing to watch out for is considering our upper range as being a seperate part of our playing skills. I practice in my extreme upper range every day, but I can’t hit it hard every day.

Long tones haven’t been the key for me at all in terms of range. The key has been Pops approach of playing those high notes repeatedly. Why? We are trying to develop muscle memory, and we do that more effectively by hitting a note 16 times vs hitting it once and holding it for 16 beats.

Long tones are indeed of value to develop various aspects of our playing—like endurance, intonation, tone, consistency—you know, the small stuff —but they aren’t nearly as much help in developing the muscle memory required to consistently hit high notes. If you don’t believe me, then pick a note at the top of you current playable range. Hit it and hold it for say 8 beats at say 150 (a common med jazz tempo). Rest, then hit it cleanly 8 times in a row.

I find it much easier to sustain a high note once I have hit it than to repeatedly hit it cleanly. In fact, even when it don’t cleanly hit a high note—maybe overshooting then undershooting and making a very squirrelly attack; once I am locked in I can sustain it. This is really noticeable starting around High G where the standing wave node of the note is outside the bell (I’m told). Regardless of the accuracy of the physics description, there isn’t much horn feedback at all up there all so muscle memory is critical to play those notes.

All that said, one must have a basic amount of endurance, intonation, tone, and consistency before one can develop a high upper range, and long tones are definitely part of that path. Just don’t stop there......
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, I'm just a hacker. What do I know?

Just the same, if I understand the OP correctly the issue isn't just range, it is consistency. If that is so, it might be a tongue level issue. The position of the tongue determines the note to be played. Call a qualified Claude Gordon instructor (e.g., Jeff Purtle, John Mohan, etc.). Take a few lessons. Learn to practice the right stuff stuff, the right way, the right amount of time.

That's what I am doing and it is paying off.

Warm regards,
Grits
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: How did the notes come to you? Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
I really want to have articulation to my highest usable note but I’m missing something.


Unless you learn to tongue the way Herbert L. Clarke first described on page 5 of his book Characteristic Studies for the Cornet (first published more than 100 years ago now), which is also the way most if not all virtuoso level players tongue, you will always have articulation issues in the upper register. When one tongues the common but wrong way, with the tip of their tongue articulating against the area of the back of the top teeth, the tongue is positioned too far back in the mouth, and until the tongue tip gets down into the area behind the bottom teeth after each articulation, the tip is in the way of the compact airstream on the high notes after each and every articulation. This is why so many average players cannot tongue notes cleanly and accurately as high as they can slur them.

The correct way to tongue (called "Dorsal Tonguing" by some, "K-Tongue Modified" by Claude Gordon and his students, and "Anchor Tonguing" by others) is also described in Claude Gordon's books Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing (page 24) and Tongue Level Exercises (page 2). Note that "Anchor Tonguing" is not a good descriptor for this method of tonguing as the tip of the tongue should never be held rigid or "anchored", but instead should be kept relaxed and in the area behind the bottom front teeth and allowed to move around in that area as it wants to.

With this method of tonguing, the tip is kept in the area behind the bottom front teeth and the articulation is done by articulating the front-middle portion of the tongue against the area just behind the top front teeth. Many players will actually feel that front middle potion coming into contact with the lips in the area between their top and bottom teeth as they articulate notes - this is normal. When one tongues this way, the amount of tongue movement is minimized and much faster articulations can be developed. More importantly, the tongue is kept more forward in the mouth and the tip is always kept out of the way of the airstream.

For anyone who has been tonguing the common but wrong way with the tip for a period of time, that habit will be a little bit difficult to overcome - the newer (better) way of tonguing will feel awkward at first. But if one practices it using the first exercise in the Tongue Level Exercises book diligently for a few weeks, it will take over and one will be amazed at how much easier articulations - especially in the upper register - have become. Multiple tonguing also becomes much faster and more sure on the higher notes using this method.

There. I've given you the secret (though it shouldn't be a secret, since it was first described in a trumpet book more than 100 years ago - and now published in three different books that have been published by Carl Fischer for many, many years and are widely available).

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What John Mohan said.


Warm regards,
Grits
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
By playing or trying to play hundreds of thousands of high notes.

When I got to where I could play 100 good high Cs or 200 bad ones I went to High D.
100 good High Ds or 200 whatever High Ds then I went to High E.

Fewer than 100 good High C,D,E...ones every day is too few.

Even if it is B or A below High C fewer than 100 a day is too few.

We gain control and power play playing LOTS of notes every day.

4 scales is playing the note 4 times. Tongue the note, slur to the note play a song that has that note 20 times like Fur Elise in the right key to make that note have 20 times.

Don't build a range flagpole. Build a range pyramid. Make a good solid base.


There’s a reason why cats like Maynard said to practice music up there. You want to make the top of the range you want to achieve part of your normal everyday range, playing your highest notes as much as all the other notes on the horn. If you’re a jazz player, you have an advantage because you can just improvise up there. If not, you can take advantage of a guy like Pops who writes books with music going in and out of the double C+ range. Also, he addresses the most important factor of tensionless, relaxed playing. It’s good to get to the point where you don’t think of the notes as ‘high’ or ‘low’ except for the ‘musical energy’ you’re trying to effect.

There’s a great section of Bob Findley’s trumpet method book where he talks about this, and he shows a big piano keyboard illustration. He remarks that you want your range to be as easy as playing the different ranges on the piano - not seeing a great distance between high and low, but all the notes are close together.

Here's an example of a fellow with fairly adequate technique who doesn't see the notes as far apart


Link

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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did Maynard, Faddis, Brisbois and others use K-Tongue Modified?

(Serious, not just asking-for-the-sake-of-asking type question.)
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno keh, but I think most high note players would describe their tongue as automatically going into that position way up high. If I am up in the double C range, my tongue is automatically in that K-tongue position without my ever thinking about.

Teachers like Claude Gordon, Pops, and some others, teach it for all over the horn for the sake of efficiency. Best, Lex
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Basically... what you do is you start with low C start pp with a good attack, crescendo for eight counts(at 60 bpm) to a good mf and then decrescendo for eight counts down to ppp.
Resting between each tone, continue this up to third space C.
Then it is suggested that you rest for a few minutes, and then continue the process starting on 3rd space C up to high C, remembering to rest between each tone.
Then you rest for a few minutes again.
Then you continue by starting on low C working your way down to low F #
and then back up to low C.
Always strive for a good clean attack and a good steady crescendo and decrescendo.
It is suggested that you do this for a few weeks and not worry too much about going above high C.
This routine usually takes me about an hour to do with the proper rests.
After you gain some proficiency at this exercise you will begin to feel your embouchure strengthening and your tone will certainly be improving, and you will be gaining control.
Remember... Do not practice too loudly ! Practice mostly very softly !!
When you can do this routine a couple of times a day, say once in the morning, and once in the afternoon, and when you feel confident, then you can begin to work above high C in the same manner. It does not come overnight.
It is important to remember ...DO NOT OVERDO IT...REST FREQUENTLY!!!
This basic routine is the first exercise in a book(not really a book, more like a brochure)
entitled...
DAILY EMBOUCHURE STUDIES
By Edwin Franko Goldman.
Which was originally published by Carl Fischer.
It was first published in 1909 and then it was published again in 1934.
The brochure also contains lip slurs, major scales, arpeggios, and tonguing exercises.
I think you can probably still order a copy of this publication from Pender's Music in Denton Texas.
Hope this info is helpful.


There is quite an excellent, but not well-known book, called 'Cornet Playing' written by a New Zealand muso in 1960 named Norman D'Ath. It has some long tone exercises in it like the Goldman, as well as some really fantastic lip slurring exercises. Also some other very good crescendo/decrescendo studies. Fast lip slur exercises up to double C, whisper-style exercises, Clarke style technical studies..Some fast double octave lip slurring exercises like in Pops' books. Really solid stuff presented in an exceptional way imo.
https://qpress.ca/product/cornet-playing-by-norman-dath-no-pressure-system-pdf/
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljazztrm wrote:
I dunno keh, but I think most high note players would describe their tongue as automatically going into that position way up high. If I am up in the double C range, my tongue is automatically in that K-tongue position without my ever thinking about.

Teachers like Claude Gordon, Pops, and some others, teach it for all over the horn for the sake of efficiency. Best, Lex

I'm finding it less than helpful to think of the tongue position very often. And I'm finding more and more that is is in the right place above 1st g above staff and onward. What seemed to be bothering me was when I thought "anchor" which was giving me a "thu
Sound especially in and below the staff - John Mohan thanks for that - it's one thing I didn't pick up from Clark. You were right on target on this. When I "anchored" I could feel there was too much down to get my tongue level and the arch was too far back. Tongue-ing to hi f is much easier, and as long as I check to make sure I'm on bottom teeth I don't think anchor and hurt tone and airflo.
I also see the value to the pyramid. I play about half and half in and above the staff. I do at least 500 notes from g to hi f a day, but I guess I need to start pushing my edge a bit more. Since I started playing higher regularly my hi c is rock solid even after 3-4 hour day. Any suggestions on working up to 500 hi g's a day. I'm pretty sure I could do 500 hi c's a day but would like a suggestion on how to creep up without falling back?
I started the long tones 1st thing today and did f# to hi c with about 5 minutes between each break. Then took a 1/2 hour for chores and 2nd session got a little tiring second 20 minutes. - flexibility and scales. Been off about an hour and going to try for another hour in a few.
Next session is fingering and the Daniels ow-ee-ow's and strength. If I got anything left I'll just do Spotify and Sirius till I'm done for the day:

I appreciate all the feedback I'm getting and would really like to find a good local teacher but I live in WV and if they are out there I would love to hear from them.
thank GOD I enjoy this as it certainly takes more concentrated effort than any healthcare job I ever had, and I had some pretty detailed jobs. My hat is off in a big way to anyone who makes a name doing this and my thanks as well for all advice, pro or climber like me!
Rod
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Skype lesson/lessons from Pops would do a lot to ensure you are on the right path. You can take those anywhere......
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Rod, I’ve taken a couple of Skype lessons with Pops, it’s great idea! I believe Lynn Nicholson also does Skype lessons. Do you have his video ‘Got High Notes’? How about the Dave Belknap Schlossberg routine?

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=145903&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Although it sounds you’re already doing John Daniel’s routine out of his fantastic book, ‘Special Studies for Trumpet’. Maybe you want to experiment with adding the Cat Anderson 20 min whisper ‘G’ with the teeth closed. If you’re into the concepts of ‘unfurling’, relaxation, and tensionless playing like Lynn and Pops talk about, you may find the 20 min ‘G’ quite beneficial. Trumpet player Larry Merigliano talks about this as a way to enforce an 'unfurled' position (since it's really hard to roll your lips in with your teeth all the way closed). The 20 min 'G' practiced this way also forces your chops to really relax. You have to really relax the muscles in order to get the sound out 'around your closed teeth' and in a whisper.. And it focuses on the muscles right around the lips needed to play, while teaching all the rest of the muscles to relax. It can really establish control and less tension in one's playing.
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drewwilkie86
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Did Maynard, Faddis, Brisbois and others use K-Tongue Modified?

(Serious, not just asking-for-the-sake-of-asking type question.)


Watch videos of Faddis setting up in slow motion, and you will see his tongue pressed all the way up against his front teeth. In other words, yes.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljazztrm wrote:
Hey Rod, I’ve taken a couple of Skype lessons with Pops, it’s great idea! I believe Lynn Nicholson also does Skype lessons. Do you have his video ‘Got High Notes’? How about the Dave Belknap Schlossberg routine?

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=145903&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Although it sounds you’re already doing John Daniel’s routine out of his fantastic book, ‘Special Studies for Trumpet’. Maybe you want to experiment with adding the Cat Anderson 20 min whisper ‘G’ with the teeth closed. If you’re into the concepts of ‘unfurling’, relaxation, and tensionless playing like Lynn and Pops talk about, you may find the 20 min ‘G’ quite beneficial. Trumpet player Larry Merigliano talks about this as a way to enforce an 'unfurled' position (since it's really hard to roll your lips in with your teeth all the way closed). The 20 min 'G' practiced this way also forces your chops to really relax. You have to really relax the muscles in order to get the sound out 'around your closed teeth' and in a whisper.. And it focuses on the muscles right around the lips needed to play, while teaching all the rest of the muscles to relax. It can really establish control and less tension in one's playing.


I started on Greg Spence about 3 weeks ago and really like his stuff, it plays to my concept of playing - ease.
But you guys gotta read a post in fundamentals called a 19/30 exercise. Very simple exercise and I thought why not. Did exactly what was asked of me and everything popped 1st day I tried it. Ive always had good tone, now Ive got great tone. Notes are bigger (have a thing called TE tuner that has an analyser on it - before I was getting 2-3 harmonics as big as the root, now I get 6 or more) clearer and EASIER. I was absolutely ready for this. I struggled with the tensionless thing although I have POPs book and had lessons with Manley and some other pros, I didn’t really know what they were talking about, tension where, eliminate it how,what does it FEEL like? This exercise (FOR ME) showed me what tensionless felt like. It also showed me what the other guys were trying to tell me and why I hadn’t understood it before. It go’s against nothing anyone (not everyone) had ever told me about tension. The exercise just allowed me to experience it, and the gates opened for me. Lights came on, I could play much longer without fatigue. I could now double up on my hi note pyramid (sorry no new notes yet but the ones I got I GOT.) so I might gain. I was really having issues about how I could play 500 hi F’s a day and add 50 G’s?? Now I feel I can. The guy who wrote this is just giving his way of discovering tensionless, and I found it, for me same day I tried it. I’d really like to hear from you guys who already have monster chops about the approach. Who cant use a way to eliminate tension.
Larry M just had a trumpet cloned from my Eclipse silver bell and I cant wait to hear him on it. Give me an idea of what mine will sound like soon (positive thinking 🤔.

I’m not wasting your time on this, really
Rod
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congrats on the great breakthrough Rod!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a very cool think indeed when we achieve a breakthrough! It doesn’t always come as we would think.

I still remember when I figured out tongue arch a few years ago. I came across something Eric Bolvin said about what Pops has been saying. I don’t even remember what Eric said but it did get me to thinking about tongue arch, but all of a sudden I recognized the feel and I immediately went from iffy High Es to solid High Gs.

All that said, it is time for me to go through Pops tensionless playing again.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
It is a very cool think indeed when we achieve a breakthrough! It doesn’t always come as we would think.

I still remember when I figured out tongue arch a few years ago. I came across something Eric Bolvin said about what Pops has been saying. I don’t even remember what Eric said but it did get me to thinking about tongue arch, but all of a sudden I recognized the feel and I immediately went from iffy High Es to solid High Gs.

All that said, it is time for me to go through Pops tensionless playing again.

Try that exercise. More feel than read.
Rod
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
INTJ wrote:
It is a very cool think indeed when we achieve a breakthrough! It doesn’t always come as we would think.

I still remember when I figured out tongue arch a few years ago. I came across something Eric Bolvin said about what Pops has been saying. I don’t even remember what Eric said but it did get me to thinking about tongue arch, but all of a sudden I recognized the feel and I immediately went from iffy High Es to solid High Gs.

All that said, it is time for me to go through Pops tensionless playing again.

Try that exercise. More feel than read.
Rod


I did read the article and it looks like a great approach, especially if the descriptions help you visualize what you need to do. Pops approach to tensionless playing works great for me, and I have been doing something similar to what the article describes for a while now. I warm up that way each time I play, striving to relax, find resonance in my tone, and to l get the arperture tunnel going. I also drone on a didgeridoo quite a bit.

I don’t need to add an exercise, but I do need to refocus my thinking again to play more relaxed. I think that is a lifetime pursuit with trumpet......
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Didge and low, loose lip buzzing from Pops is the most effective way I've seen to take tension away from our embouchure when we are away from the horn. You can do the low, loose lip buzzing while driving.. and, if you have a 'pocket didge' like me, you can even do didge 'buzzing' too
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
Quote:
I'm finding it less than helpful to think of the tongue position very often. And I'm finding more and more that is in the right place above 1st g above staff and onward. What seemed to be bothering me was when I thought "anchor" which was giving me a "thu


This is a wise approach. And you are correct; the tongue moves up as you ascend depending on the muscular effort of certain embouchure muscle actions, (specifically the roll-out action of the inside corners). It is fine to be aware of it (or not). But to force the tongue into some unnatural position for the note you are playing is can be detrimental (Your "thu" sounding attacks). ESPECIALLY ON LOWER TO MID-RANGE NOTES. The tongue level, tongue movement, is quite misunderstood among players and MANY teachers. The obsession with the tongue at the exclusion of the things that actually control the sound is what you will find frequently within the language of particular players and teachers. (Even in this thread)

It is not the level of the tongue that determines the pitch. It is the embouchure state, controlled by the embouchure muscles.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Rod Haney wrote:
Quote:
I'm finding it less than helpful to think of the tongue position very often. And I'm finding more and more that is in the right place above 1st g above staff and onward. What seemed to be bothering me was when I thought "anchor" which was giving me a "thu


This is a wise approach. And you are correct; the tongue moves up as you ascend depending on the muscular effort of certain embouchure muscle actions, (specifically the roll-out action of the inside corners). It is fine to be aware of it (or not). But to force the tongue into some unnatural position for the note you are playing is can be detrimental (Your "thu" sounding attacks). ESPECIALLY ON LOWER TO MID-RANGE NOTES. The tongue level, tongue movement, is quite misunderstood among players and MANY teachers. The obsession with the tongue at the exclusion of the things that actually control the sound is what you will find frequently within the language of particular players and teachers. (Even in this thread)

It is not the level of the tongue that determines the pitch. It is the embouchure state, controlled by the embouchure muscles.


Not sure about all that yet, I am finding out that after the lips get out of the way you can start to feel the other pieces starting to coordinate. Actually the only time I’m thinking about a note is if I miss it and then just reminding myself just to let it happen. I see now why breathing exercises, and tongue exercises, and strengthening the correct corners are so important, because I now feel these things, not just hearing what they are (I’m starting to think that all of them are only done to build coordination of everything - slightly emphasizing one aspect).
I find if I spend the 1st hour of the day just getting the chops so they aren’t doing anything but reacting to my air is key to feeling how these other things help make the sound and pitch. BUT remember I have only found this in the last 2 weeks and I am trying to make this habit #the 1, take the lips under the mouthpiece out of the equation! I am certainly not saying that finding the 19/30 exercise gave me a great abilities overnite cause you know that wouldn’t taste good on a cracker, but it is allowing me to let those things work in a increasingly coordinated way that I can FEEL and relate to what I’m trying to do. I’m apparently a very tactile type person and need to feel something, feeling tensionless play (or much less anyway) opened a big door and a lot of light came thru. Why flexibility’s build tongue facility of done right, why Iorns exercises build the breath support and build the corners correctly (when done correctly), what John Daniels Is doing with the OW-EE-OW. Cat’s whisper G is working and although I can only do it for 10 minutes so far, the extent it relaxes your lips is amazing, and some of the notes Ive squeaked are scary after I finish!! I truly believe I could have done flexibility studies, and strength and breath studies to Gabe blows his axe and would never had the understanding I got when I found playing without lip manipulation. Now when I miss something I dont automatically blame the lip strength, I realize something wasn’t coordinated correctly, and if its not the lip and it never is - its the eyeteeth corners or breath support or tongue level. Every teacher should teach this to their students (tensionless) as it makes everything so much easier and lets your sound vibrate!
I still have a lot of work to get to a place where these things all make sense and begin to acheive the desired range and facility I want. BUT when I got the lip manipulations out of the way and just let the air vibrate them into the shape they needed to be then everything became a well lit room, I see lots of possibilities I didn’t see before and a lot of fuzzy concepts became much clearer. Amazing to me that reading a 5 year old post and blindly trying something had such amazing results. I believe my sound improved 50% in a day and as long as I work on the routine to start and correct things when I feel old habits show back up ill improve and 3 times my previous rate. I’m starting to think every beginner should spend lots of time learning to let the horn speak and make an effortless tone. It frees up so much of your mind to coordinate all this other crap!
Rod
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