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Low Alpha Shallow Piece


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botahoratiu
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:12 am    Post subject: Low Alpha Shallow Piece Reply with quote

Hi
Does anyone know a low alpha angle shallow piece in the 1-3 range? I currently play Warburtons and have a 3S in my collection, but would like more of a drop into the cup. On the Kanstul mouthpiece comparator, the only one that seems like that is the 1S. Does anyone have an experience with this one? Or anything else in this 3-1 rim range. I like the warburton rims. Don't bother to mention Jet-tone's because as far as I know, they have a high point farther away from the cup, wich doesn't work for me. I have a lot of lip protrusion, when I play. (I even tried once a Jettone E.Merian ... don't remember the other parameters ... and it didn't worked)
Thank you very much.
Horatiu
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BRM2
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know exactly what you are going through. I also own the Warburton 3S, SV, and ESV cups.

Check out Curry Z cups, Reeves S cups, Hammond S cups, and GR C-TZ cups. These have lower alpha angles to me in comparison to Shilke A4a cups and other lead mouthpieces. Rims should also be similar depending on which size you are looking at.

If you can handle shallower and tighter pieces, check out Marcinkiewicz E10 B. Findley and E13 C.Findley mouthpieces.

If you want a flat bottom cups, the Curry 600 M cups are also a good choice. The time are more rounded though.

Despite playing the E13 C. Findley for all my playing, I still have some lip protrution into the mouthpiece and struggle with other shallow pieces.
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botahoratiu
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi. How does all compare to the Warburton 3S ? I mean the alpha angle. The 3S has an anpha angle that is a bit still too high for me.
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B. Scriver
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try the GR M65.6S, or our 66S-B and 67S-B. The 67CT-Z suggestion is a good one as well.

Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com
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BRM2
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The GR C-TZ cup definitely.

Next the Marcinkiewicz E10 B. Findley. However, it is pretty shallow and has a tighter throat and backbore than your Warburton.

Maybe the Curry 600 series M cup.

It might be better to just have Warburton create a lower angle on your current 3S....? Might be cheaper too?....
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Last edited by BRM2 on Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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botahoratiu
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the CT-Z has a #3 backbore and is a pretty free blowing piece. I would like something with more than middle resistance
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botahoratiu
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never played Marcinkiewicz... how's the rim?
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BRM2
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Marcinkiewicz rims are all different and based on each particular mouthpiece. In comparison to the Warburton 3S, it feels very similar in size on my chops with the only difference being the more rounded outer rim. I only felt a difference when i applied excessive pressure though.

Again, this piece will be more resistant than your Warburton. With a cup depth closer to a Warburton ESVcup.
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maynard-46
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:01 am    Post subject: Low Alpha Shallow Piece Reply with quote

The Reeves' "D" cup is exactly what ur looking for. More cup volume so u don't bottom out...more undercut...and lower alpha angle.

Butch
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curry's ZM cup, just marked Z, gives what you want without being too expensive. You can get it in a top only and use it with your current backbore.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
Curry's ZM cup, just marked Z, gives what you want without being too expensive. You can get it in a top only and use it with your current backbore.


I think you made a typo in your reply.

The ZM is just marked "M". The Z cup is a shallower model than the ZM (M).

From the Curry Website:

Quote:
ZM Cup: The Curry ZM cup (usually marked "M" on the mpc.) has proven to be an excellent "crossover" mouthpiece for those players who need to play both classical and jazz. Slightly shallower than the C cup, it's medium cup has enough tone to satisfy most classical needs, yet is bright enough to play parts in a big band.
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B. Scriver
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the CT-Z has a #3 backbore and is a pretty free blowing piece. I would like something with more than middle resistance

The 67CT-Z has a #1BB. The alpha angle is not low. Rather, it's lower than very high alpha angles that the OP is trying to get away from, typically associate with the lead type mouthpieces. The 67CT-Z is extremely popular for large diameter players that need to switch venues like Orchestral to Big Band lead. Or Orchestral to a movie sound track.

The 67CT-Z design may feel more open, it's not from the backbore. If you are using the alpha angle to create compression, you reduce the alpha angle, the resistance drops. It has to be a match with the player. You could take the same player and put them on different type trumpets with the 67CT-Z. One would work really well and one would not be resistant enough or too resistant. This is player specific. See GR Rule #3. The player, mouthpiece, and instrument must be a match. If one is changed the others must be able to accommodate the change or be changed as well.

When you drop the alpha angle to accommodate more lip engagement you can go too far and lose the compression.

We make a 66L-Z (L alpha angle and Z bottom) if you are looking for a low alpha angle and the Z type cup. It is special order.

There are other problems with an alpha that is too low. I can experience the dreaded (Fracking or note fracturing). Too high the note or air will stop. If that high alpha angle just touches the lip the vibrations can stop yet you might still hear some air moving. If the air stops, vibration stops.

Gary Radtke
www.grmouthpieces.com
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Al Innella
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Give the Warburton anchor grip top a try. I had problems playing his SV standard top,I needed a little more room for my lip. The anchor grip top gave me more lip room without having to go to a deeper cup.
The rim has a different feel, but it's definitely worth a try.
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monette made me one it was called a B1-5LDDD if I remember correctly. It was designed for Scotty Barnhart. Imagine a lead mouthpiece with a bit of extra cylindrical section at the top for lip room. It worked very well but I no longer have it as it was specifically for the P3 trumpet that went in my divorce!
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botahoratiu
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, thank you for all the replies, but is there any stock mouthpiece that has that cylindrical section in the top of the cup, without going custom? I mean ... does anybody know how a 67S-B, or a Curry Star or another one compares to my Warburton 3S regarding the alpha angle and the shallowness? would really like to find a shallow-flat bottom cup-low alpha angle mouthpiece
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botahoratiu
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had anybody tried the Warburton 1S? is it that big of a diameter? (in any other terms, it would look to me perfect from the Kanstul comparator)
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Al Innella
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

botahoratiu wrote:
Ok, thank you for all the replies, but is there any stock mouthpiece that has that cylindrical section in the top of the cup, without going custom? I mean ... does anybody know how a 67S-B, or a Curry Star or another one compares to my Warburton 3S regarding the alpha angle and the shallowness? would really like to find a shallow-flat bottom cup-low alpha angle mouthpiece


The Warburton anchor grip tops are stock mouthpieces,so if you like the Warburton 3S standard top,but need more lip room, try the 3S anchor grip top.It's the same ID,same depth,but more lip room (different alpha angle),and you can use your old back bore.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al Innella wrote:
botahoratiu wrote:
Ok, thank you for all the replies, but is there any stock mouthpiece that has that cylindrical section in the top of the cup, without going custom? I mean ... does anybody know how a 67S-B, or a Curry Star or another one compares to my Warburton 3S regarding the alpha angle and the shallowness? would really like to find a shallow-flat bottom cup-low alpha angle mouthpiece


The Warburton anchor grip tops are stock mouthpieces,so if you like the Warburton 3S standard top,but need more lip room, try the 3S anchor grip top.It's the same ID,same depth,but more lip room (different alpha angle),and you can use your old back bore.


Al,

For my curiousity... do you have a source for the undercut (alpha angle) being different?

I was under the impression (I haven't used/owned one for several years now) that the only difference was the outer shape (the french-cut style rim that's very thin vertically on the outside).
I'm pretty sure from experience that that outer shape can help anchor the lips out of the cup a bit more, which might create the illusion of there being more chop space... but the alpha angle is an internal thing, so presumably that's the same?
At any rate - wouldn't this would kinda agree with what Warburton's own website claims?

http://www.warburton-usa.com/index.php/faq/61-what-is-an-anchor-grip-top-do-i-need-one wrote:
If you have thick or fleshy lips and the feeling that your mouthpiece doesn't seat as securely as you would like, Warburton Anchor Grip Tops may be for you. These are different from standard tops only in the outside rim area as shown
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Al Innella
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have a source for the under cut.All I know is that I had issues with the standard top cup,and no issues with the same depth anchor grip top.
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BRM2
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

botahoratiu wrote:
Ok, thank you for all the replies, but is there any stock mouthpiece that has that cylindrical section in the top of the cup, without going custom? I mean ... does anybody know how a 67S-B, or a Curry Star or another one compares to my Warburton 3S regarding the alpha angle and the shallowness? would really like to find a shallow-flat bottom cup-low alpha angle mouthpiece


I have owned a 67S-B in the past. To me , it is a medium shallow mouthpiece that has a comparable alpha angle to the Warburton 3S. It might be a hair deeper. It felt tighter to me than the 67MS because of the cup design. I personally have an easier time with the 67MS the the 67S.

I still have my Curry 1 Star. It is a medium shallow mouthpiece that is bowl shaped and feels a little tight to me like the 67S-B. I think the alpha angle and depth i is also similar to your 3S.

I still think the GR C-TZ cups have a lower alpha angle than all of the mouthpieces you have mentioned. This is based on my own personal experience with all of these mouthpieces.

Also, a Curry 600 series M cup would be worth a try because it is inexpensive and you would not have to change the way you blow. The S cup is more flat bottomed to me than the M cup and a really shallow piece.

Hope this helps.
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