Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:54 am Post subject: Bottom lip rolling/curling
Okay, this is some terminology that's been confusing me for months:
many people talk about curling/rolling the bottom lip (or both lips in some cases).
But a lot of folks say they curl OVER the bottom teeth. My bottom lip rolls and sort of slightly tucks in FRONT of my bottom teeth.
I just don't get how players can play if their bottom lip is stretched over the bottom teeth.... Or perhaps I'm visualizing it wrong. That's my confusion. _________________ ATB
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 Posts: 218 Location: Southern U.S.
Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:13 am Post subject:
Jeff Smiley says to roll in.
Lynn Nicholson says to do the opposite. "Unfurl" your lips into the mouthpiece.
You see my point? People should do what works for them. What works for one guy doesn't work for the next. If everyone had the exact same physical characteristics such as teeth, jaw, etc., then there would be one great formula that would work for everyone. But everyone is unique. There is no one size fits all.
So the answer is, if curling OVER the teeth doesn't work for you, then do what does work for you.
Concentrate on getting the best sound you can get with the least amount of effort and let the lips figure the rest out for themselves. Don't fall into analysis paralysis and get upset about why you can't get your lips to do this or that.
That's not to say that you shouldn't experiment. But don't fall into the trap of trying for a long time to make something work for you that just doesn't work and only seems to make you get worse.
Lynn Nicholson says to do the opposite. "Unfurl" your lips into the mouthpiece.
You see my point? People should do what works for them. What works for one guy doesn't work for the next. If everyone had the exact same physical characteristics such as teeth, jaw, etc., then there would be one great formula that would work for everyone. But everyone is unique. There is no one size fits all.
So the answer is, if curling OVER the teeth doesn't work for you, then do what does work for you.
Concentrate on getting the best sound you can get with the least amount of effort and let the lips figure the rest out for themselves. Don't fall into analysis paralysis and get upset about why you can't get your lips to do this or that.
That's not to say that you shouldn't experiment. But don't fall into the trap of trying for a long time to make something work for you that just doesn't work and only seems to make you get worse.
Really appreciate the reply, gabriel127.
I'm thinking especially/primarily in terms of "nomenclature". I don't plan to make any changes to how I do things, but more of just trying to get an understanding for what people mean BY "curling over the bottom teeth" since to me that seems absurdly restrictive on the chops. _________________ ATB
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 Posts: 218 Location: Southern U.S.
Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:30 am Post subject:
Well, there again we run into a common problem with learning trumpet techniques.
People try the best to describe what they feel they're doing, but in reality, they're often doing something completely different.
For example, Max Schlossberg used to tell people to "smile" in order to ascend. He said this, believing that that was what he was doing because that's what he saw when he looked in the mirror. His physical structure/jaw alignment was such that when he firmed up the embouchure, it gave the appearance of smiling. His mouthcorners appeared to curve upward. But what he was really doing in actuality with his muscles was puckering, in other words bunching the lip muscles TOWARD the mouthpiece. This puckering neutralizes the backward pressure of the mouthpiece against the chops while ascending. But the mouthcorners curving upward were solely a product of his physical structure. Some people, when they firm up the muscles of the embouchure to ascend, they appear to be frowning. But again, this is just because they have a different jaw structure. Generally speaking people with overbites tend to look like they're frowning, while people with more even jaw alignments or even underbites tend to look like they're smiling. But the act of "smiling," which is stretching the lips back away from the mouthpiece is absolutely a no-no to ascend. This exposes the lips to injury. It's definitely not the way to play. So we have to forgive teachers like Max Schlossberg for they know not what they do. And this is why I don't believe that great players are good teachers because for most of them, playing great came naturally. They really don't know what they're doing because it came so naturally and very often their self-analysis is inaccurate.
Another case in point. A well-known trumpet player in Maynard's band in the late 70's told me (and I've heard him repeat this in clinics) has said repeatedly that when he plays, he feels that the bottom lip should take all of the pressure, while the top lip does most of the buzzing. There are two major flaws in this bit of advice.
The first is, that the lip that does the most buzzing is determined by whether the player is upstream or downstream. On an upstreamer, the bottom lip does most of the buzzing. For a downstreamer, the top lip does most of the buzzing. So you can't tell everybody to make sure that their top lip does the buzzing because if it's more natural for that person to be an upstreamer, you can drive them crazy and put them into a lot of frustration and failure by telling them that they must let their top lip do most of the vibrating.
The second flaw in that statement is that the very player who made this statement was wrong in his self-analysis. He said that he felt that the bottom lip took most of the pressure and the top lip did most of the vibrating. But if you looked at his chops you'd see a big scar/callus on his top lip and virtually nothing on his bottom lip. It was obvious that this guy puts more pressure on the top lip than the bottom. He was correct that the top lip did most of the vibrating as he was a downstream player, but he was wrong about the bottom getting most of the pressure.
I've seen many examples of where players say they're doing one thing, while in reality, they're doing another. For instance, if you look at the video on YouTube entitled "Jim Manley & Airmen of Note trumpets hang" and you go to 7:50, there's a segment there where Jim Manley is saying where he thinks he's doing something, and Brian MacDonald is watching and then corrects him and tells him that he's actually doing something different. I've seen this kind of thing so many times over the years and it proves that self-analysis with trumpet playing is difficult. You can't always take something that a great player is telling you is happening and take that as the gospel.
You have to experiment and do what works for you. The cornerstones of your approach should always be to strive for getting a good pure sound, a relaxed approach and getting your chops to ride that airstream and work efficiently. I found pedal tones and practicing slurs, snapping the top notes (as Claude Gordon used to teach) as a good method to achieve this. And don't worry with analysis paralysis as to what your lips are doing. You may very well be pushing your bottom lip over the edge of the teeth without even knowing it. Let your sound and your efficiency be your guides. Stop thinking so much about it.
There might be some information in this video that helps explain or show a visual of what you are asking. I don’t roll the lower lip in but the top of it does sit just on the bottom teeth.
I'm going to disagree with a portion of a post. Where someone mentioned that "the lower lip of an upstream player vibrates".
From my experience and study (which is considerable) I have strong reason to believe that only the top lip vibrates among brass players. The texture of the lower lip is stiff, fibrous, and too coarse to do much beside work as a regulator of the upper lip.
And even when we roll or curl in the lower lip this action is just exerting a mild force on the upper lip. I believe that a roll in pulls the insides left and right of the upper lip back. And indeed it is this action, coupled with an increase in air pressure which can raise the pitch.
If the lower lip were to actually vibrate it would be a most unmusical matter. As how could we possibly expect it to vibrate at the same speed as the upper? A dissonance is always created during these "wolf tobes".
Sometimes when I would tire while playing trombone I could get a most annoying dual tone. I called this a "wolf tone". And it is caused because as the upper lip tires it is less able to vibrate. Thus the brass player may push more air pressure against his lips in hopes of it responding better. However since the upper lip is fatigued it does not vibrate so loudly. However by really blowing harder the threshold to activate the lower lip's capacity to vibrate is exceeded.
It is this action which produces some godawful noises. Esp from low brass players. In the trumpet the mouthpiece is too small to allow the lower lip to vibrate. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Puckering will give a larger sound because the rolled out lips don't fight the air like rolled in lips do and so you get more volume. The rolled out lips also give more resonance because the inner tissue vibrates very well and adds more upper harmonics to your sound. However; the rolled out pucker makes us need to compensate some for more resistance somewhere else for really high notes. People like Lynn use a LOT stronger breath support.
The Rolled in allows stiffer lip tissue to vibrate but that stiffer tissue also needs more air pressure to vibrate and that means less volume than the other guy when using the same amount of air. The stiffer lip tissue also is very poor at punching up the upper harmonics and so that action inherently has less resonance. (A double whammy.) These 2 issues can also be compensated for. On the plus side the stiffer lip tissue makes the 1st part of the upper register a little easier to hit.
SO both lip actions have pro and cons and the cons can be compensated for. It is up to the player to decide what they want to work for and compensate for.
Lastly we have the rolling in over the teeth. That creases so many more issues than just rolling in. To me it isn't worth trying. When you create a lot of air compression the lip starts to unroll inside the mouth and closes off the space between the teeth. You choke the sound and notes out. The lips also can't line up to make lip compression with them rolled in over the teeth. This action has 4 whammies and 2 can't be compensated for. _________________ Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
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Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:48 am Post subject:
Lionel wrote:
I'm going to disagree with a portion of a post. Where someone mentioned that "the lower lip of an upstream player vibrates".
From my experience and study (which is considerable) I have strong reason to believe that only the top lip vibrates among brass players.
Well everyone bases their assertions on their own frames of reference. Many years ago, I might have considered the validity of the above statement, but the fact that I played as a downstreamer early in my trumpet career and later became an upstreamer is what I primarily based my assertion on.
In addition, according to Doc Reinhardt (if you've read his encyclopedia of the pivot system) he claims that with an upstreamer, the bottom lip does most of the vibrating and with a downstreamer, the top lip does most of the vibrating. I each case the other lip vibrates sympathetically and to a smaller degree. Both lips vibrate, but one far more than the other. This can be easily proven with visualizers. With an upstreamer, the bottom lip overlaps the top and protrudes more into the mouthpiece than the top lip. Just based on that fact alone, it's physically impossible for the top lip to vibrate more than the bottom.
There is much about Doc Reinhardt's theories that are widely misunderstood by those who never read his entire book, took lessons from him, or from one of his disciples. I see people talk about Doc Reinhardt's "pivot" as though pivoting has to do with the angle of the horn changing as they change registers. These people don't really have a complete understanding of Reinhardt's teachings. If you read Doc's book or if you read the handout that Doc gave his students that answers the question specifically "what is a pivot," you'll see that a pivot encompasses significantly more than just changing the angle of the horn on the chops (which is an indicator of changing the direction of the airstream). I also see people from time to time say "well, I don't pivot." Here's a news flash: EVERYBODY PIVOTS whether they know it or not, unless they only play one note on the horn. If you play more than one note, you pivot.
People will base the statement "I don't pivot," or "this guy and that guy don't pivot" on the fact that they don't see the persons's horn angle change that much when they play or their jaw position is relatively static when they play. Well that's fine, but that doesn't mean they don't pivot. When a person has an embouchure that is well-developed and operating efficiently, any and all movement is minimized and less visible. This is a goal. But there's always going to be some kind of movement whether detectable or not.
Kinda got off topic there, but just wanted to add that about pivoting.
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 Posts: 218 Location: Southern U.S.
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:07 am Post subject:
Pops wrote:
Quote:
Curling and puckering have different results
OK, I'll buy that, but here's a question:
Is it possible to curl in AND pucker at the same time?
My hypothesis is yes.
Jeff Smiley's "Balanced Embouchure" involves "rolling in" the lips. Yet at the same time a lot of people who successfully adopt his balanced embouchure techniques can play the extreme high register with huge sounds, which seems to contradict your statement BUT I'm not so quick to disagree with your statement and here's why:
Perhaps those who play with the balanced embouchure start out playing with their chops protruding further into the mouthpiece to begin with. So when they ascend, they can be rolling in, but still have more chops in the mouthpiece and can be puckering at the same time.
This would be as opposed to someone who starts out with their lips already kind of thin and rolled in the middle and low register, so when they ascend the sound only gets smaller. They don't have as thick or deep an air tunnel to push that air through.
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Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:57 am Post subject:
To clear up some confusion as to nomenclature:
I don't know for a fact that it was Doc Reinhardt that first discovered this roll in to ascend idea, or that he was the first to address it. I do believe he references a DIRECTION of movement (back into the mouth) and leaves the particulars to vary from one player to another, and from pitch to pitch.
He observed every proficient player doing this, and thus concluded it is an element of successful brass playing. I would hazard the guess that the OP does this naturally when playing well, without overdoing it. The advantage of knowing about this sort of thing comes from observing what we do when we do play well, and having a better frame of reference for what to do when we're not playing so well. Eliminating bad days is a big part of progress.
Many of the motions we can discuss are so minute that we can't perceive them, or we sense them as something different than what we actually do. That leaves those concepts useless to us which is fine, as long as we're playing well.
I would interject here that whatever our bottom lip does to enable us to ascend, (referring to downstream players which is the vast majority of us) how the tongue interacts with that is at LEAST as important! And we're far more likely to feel that, because the tongue is more sensitive. It's also capable of a wider variety of motion, and thus more likely to be the culprit when we're playing poorly.
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Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:33 am Post subject:
Quote:
Is it possible to curl in AND pucker at the same time?
My hypothesis is yes.
Jeff Smiley's "Balanced Embouchure" involves "rolling in" the lips. Yet at the same time a lot of people who successfully adopt his balanced embouchure techniques can play the extreme high register with huge sounds, which seems to contradict your statement BUT I'm not so quick to disagree with your statement and here's why:
Perhaps those who play with the balanced embouchure start out playing with their chops protruding further into the mouthpiece to begin with. So when they ascend, they can be rolling in, but still have more chops in the mouthpiece and can be puckering at the same time.
This would be as opposed to someone who starts out with their lips already kind of thin and rolled in the middle and low register, so when they ascend the sound only gets smaller. They don't have as thick or deep an air tunnel to push that air through.
Just a thought that seems to make sense to me.
Not only is it possible to roll-in and roll-out at the same time, we ALL do it to some degree. The RI and RO exercises in BE are simply designed to expand this natural lip range-of-motion.
While I appreciate your comments in general, your statement that "perhaps those who play with the Balanced Embouchure start out playing with their chops protruding further into the mouthpiece to begin with," makes it sound like a deeper lip position from those who use BE is just a fortunate accident. In BE, there are Roll-out exercises, which very much work on your ability to pucker. There is nothing accidental about it. And further, the Lip Clamp exercise is described in the book as "a rolled in pucker." (page 80)
In BE, Roll-in and Roll-out (and some other exercises) are designed to work together as a complete lip range of motion package. This is done not merely to improve range, but also to improve sound and ease of playing in general.
Joined: 29 Jan 2002 Posts: 2476 Location: Burlington, Massachusetts
Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:13 am Post subject:
Isn't there a sort of half-way method. Walt Johnson tucks his lower lip under this upper lip for range. Some players do the opposite, tucking the upper lip under the lower lip. What about Stevens-Costello?
Isn't there a sort of half-way method. Walt Johnson tucks his lower lip under this upper lip for range. Some players do the opposite, tucking the upper lip under the lower lip. What about Stevens-Costello?
Jerry every possible lip to lip placement curl pucker, one lip curl and the other pucker, one lip overlaps the other... has been tried. AND someone has does it successfully.
Walt does a shift and talks about it in his book :"Double High C in 10 Minutes"
He talks about how to be successful as a pro the normal embouchure needs to be able to play and control at least a high E and higher than that is even better. (A above High C makes like a lot easier if that is your shift point. My real life observation.)
He also says that you need to practice the shift with a metronome so it talks less than a half a beat either shift. (To the high or back to the normal setting.)
As for the Stevens the lips are not supposed to overlap but meet evenly so they make compression without the need of mouthpiece pressure.
An overlap uses and needs mouthpiece pressure to make its supercharged compression. That was what I used in College for the doubles and Triples. _________________ Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:21 am Post subject:
Quote:
Trying to manipulate notes by manipulating the lips is wildly inefficient and largely unproductive.
The chops should remain neutral, static, and as relaxed as possible. If a lip is trying to deviate from that state of equilibrium at any point...stop!
See it's interesting because if you are trying to manipulate your chops during your regular practice, on the gig, etc., you are going to create a lot of problems. But there are certain exercises where you do manipulate the chops for the purpose of creating more relaxation/less tension in your regular playing. Walt Johnson has his 'high gear' exercise. Lynn Nicholson talks about the whole unfurling concept and rim buzzing. Jeff Smiley has you practicing 'roll in/roll out' exercises to teach the lips a full range of motion. Cat Anderson has the 20 minute whisper 'G' with the teeth closed where you really have to relax all the facial muscles to get a sound to come out. Clint 'Pops' McGlaughlin talks about low, loose lip buzzing and playing the didgeridoo to get tension out of our chops.
I believe the idea behind all these exercises is to create more relaxation and less tension when you're doing your regular playing. Because, yes, in the end the goal is to have our chops as relaxed as possible, letting the bigger 'core' muscles take over and do the work. That's why players like Walt Johnson and Lynn Nicholson talk about developing and strengthening the 'core' muscles to further aid in efficiency and relaxation of the chops. All the best, Lex _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:48 am Post subject:
I think there is difference between flexion and tension. Doing a set of exercises, be they the infamous pencil holding, Smiley's RI and RO, Nicholson's furling/unfurling etc will strengthen the embouchure muscles such that what is originally tension, with all the badness that word connotes becomes flexion. Maybe we could call it "relaxed power"
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:38 am Post subject:
That's a good point Jerry. Like with the way Pops prescribes the pencil exercise - to strengthen the right muscles needed for playing, which helps the other muscles, which can create tension, to relax. There is a very good video study Pops has of players under thermal imaging where you can see the muscles in the face that are used by efficient, professional players, as compared to inefficient, student players. There is way more muscular activity in more facial muscles in the inefficient, student players than in the efficient, pro players. I forget which of Pops' books I have that has the pictures and video clips, but it's really very good and sheds a lot of light on all of this.
Caruso students talk about developing balance and efficiency in the chops as well. _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:36 pm Post subject:
The thermal imaging pics are in Pop's Tension-less Playing ebook. There are also some great closeup photos of pros playing in various ranges where it's pretty easy to see which way the chops and surrounding muscles are contracting/compressing. Worth a look.
Roll in, roll out, over the teeth, what ever one does, I'd think it's best to find a way to make the embouchure compress for you in a manner that can still be overcome by the wind column. I still think there's too much emphsis on the lips themselves rather than the constant supply of wind and making certain it can also get by the tongue with no obstruction. Good luck.
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