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Bach C trumpet leadpipes



 
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trpttrpt
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:27 pm    Post subject: Bach C trumpet leadpipes Reply with quote

Can anybody tell me the difference between the 25C pipe, the bach chicago pipe, and the bach artisan pipe?
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rockford
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Bach C trumpet leadpipes Reply with quote

trpttrpt wrote:
Can anybody tell me the difference between the 25C pipe, the bach chicago pipe, and the bach artisan pipe?
The 25C is the standard leadpipe. The Chicago pipe is a little more open at the pipe entrance than the 25C but tighter than a 25H. The Artisan pipe also falls between the 25H in terms of openness at the leadpipe entrance. The best way to think about the Chicago and Artisan pipes are as modified 25 pipes.
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O00Joe
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of curiosity, how would you describe the 25A (other than just being longer) and 43 series pipes?
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Danbassin
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

O00Joe wrote:
Out of curiosity, how would you describe the 25A (other than just being longer) and 43 series pipes?


A quick google can get you a wealth of answers. While I've played most of the standard Bach and other aftermarket pipes, I can't say it any better than this Bob Osmun blog post:

https://blog.osmun.com/2014/01/31/mouthpipes-used-on-bach-c-trumpets/

Happy practicing!

-DB
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 43C leadpipe is in fact, pretty open but not so much that it really does kill your face. The 43S was too stuffy for me, actually. The tuning definitely is better than a standard 25C or 25H. too bad there isn't a Bach manufactured 43A or 43H.
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJCarter wrote:
The 43C leadpipe is in fact, pretty open but not so much that it really does kill your face. The 43S was too stuffy for me, actually. The tuning definitely is better than a standard 25C or 25H. too bad there isn't a Bach manufactured 43A or 43H.


Since you asked, we've converted all sorts of Bach pipes to non-standard configurations. These include 6A and reversed 43 pipes for C180 trumpets (long before they were offered from the factory). So converting a 43 pipe to A length should not be a problem. FYI the 43 pipe comes with a larger .351" venturi (same as H-pipe) so there would be no reason to enlarge it. Bach offers a 43C pipe if that's what you're interested in.

Please reach the me at my shop email jbecker@osmun.com to request a custom non-standard Bach pipe be made up for you.

I hope this is helpful.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
AJCarter wrote:
The 43C leadpipe is in fact, pretty open but not so much that it really does kill your face. The 43S was too stuffy for me, actually. The tuning definitely is better than a standard 25C or 25H. too bad there isn't a Bach manufactured 43A or 43H.


Since you asked, we've converted all sorts of Bach pipes to non-standard configurations. These include 6A and reversed 43 pipes for C180 trumpets (long before they were offered from the factory). So converting a 43 pipe to A length should not be a problem. FYI the 43 pipe comes with a larger .351" venturi (same as H-pipe) so there would be no reason to enlarge it. Bach offers a 43C pipe if that's what you're interested in.

Please reach the me at my shop email jbecker@osmun.com to request a custom non-standard Bach pipe be made up for you.

I hope this is helpful.


That's interesting, we've had occasion to measure a couple of 43LR Bb pipes lately and they too are much more open at the small end; .355".
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel, We've found some 25H pipes as of late measuring 354", but also some at .349". Like a mouthpiece throat, it's much easier to open up an undersized venturi than to shrink it. Though possible to do, it requires disassembly in order to get it right.
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James Becker
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Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
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www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is what Lloyd Filio told me (was in charge of design and development at bach. this conversation was in 1986 or 1988. I talked to him twice at length about such things. He was very nice and surprisingly forthright. I assume he was correct)

1) the 25c pipe is the standard pipe. It is a Bb pipe cut shorter on the big end and then the last 3/4 inch is expanded to fit the outer slide tube.

2) 25H pipe is a Bb pipe cut off 1/4 farther up the mandrel. So the small end is bigger as well as all along the length is bigger. The big end is not expanded to fit the outer tube. It is wrapped by another tube to make the O.D. correct to fit the outer tube.

3) the 25O pipe is a 25C pipe with the small end opened to be the size of the H pipe, but the whole length is the size of the 25C pipe. Expanded on the big end to fit.

4) the 25A pipe is a 25C pipe but about 1/2 inch longer. Wrapped

5) 25S pipe is a full length Bb pipe. it means the top inner slide tube is very short, and that tube should expanded to make a tighter than normal fit.

I have always thought that if you cut a standard pipe 1/4 farther up the mandrel you dont end up at .351. More like .349.....but that part of making the horn is the most iffy anyway. That is why at the end of the building process the last thing they do is "set the venturi" to the right size. Presumably by opening it.

He also said that there is absolutely no truth the Idea that H referred to Herseth, A to adelstein, and S to schlueter. He was very adamant about that. Very forceful about that idea and told to tell everyone i knew that the letters meant nothing in particular.

He also said other interesting things about lacquer and bells and things. I liked him
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
Lionel, We've found some 25H pipes as of late measuring 354", but also some at .349". Like a mouthpiece throat, it's much easier to open up an undersized venturi than to shrink it. Though possible to do, it requires disassembly in order to get it right.


Hi Jim,
I don't know what the factory is doing on this but there is nothing wrong with a more open venturi at the small end. I think it may be why 43 Bachs can feel so much more open than other models. The 43 leadpipe may be their "open" leadpipe.
-Lionel
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel, the trouble I have with an excessivly large venturi is the loss of efficiency. Typically Bach C trumpet players will play larger cups with opened up throat and backbore, so there needs to be some positive resistance built into the horn somewhere. I've read here and have been told by some of our clients that they prefer 25H pipes at .349". There will always be exceptions to the rule.

Compound that with the fact that the 43 pipe's rate of taper and volume is significantly greater than the 25 pipe.

It's not uncommon to see venuri size on Monette trumpets at or greater than .354", but are also offset with greater than average mouthpiece gap and added mass. The inverse is true of Schilke's original models with .343" venuri and smaller receiver gap. In contrast Schilke S-Series pipes have a more Bach like taper and receiver gap.

It all comes down to striking a workable balance.

I hope this is helpful.
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James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
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www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
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rockford
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Increasing the opening beyond .354 (25H)creates a lot of intonation problems and an unwieldy instrument. The original Chicago C trumpets had a .346 opening. The dimensions changed at the factory often as they learned more about them.
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NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I certainly agree that the resistance has to be built into the horn somewhere or it won't work well. The CG Selmer was the most extreme example of a big leadpipe I can think of - .360" at the small end! But the resistance is the smaller bore (choke) coming out of the first valve in the bell tail. It works very well, one of the best lead horns I ever played.
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