• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

How did the notes come to you?


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> High Range Development
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
kalijah
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3257
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no such thing as "effortless" playing. And doing things (and engaging in mental visualizations) to reduce the effort required of the embouchure is helpful. But if you think the lips aren't being manipulated and that air pressure or tongue have any direct influence on pitch played then you are kidding yourself.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937

PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
There is no such thing as "effortless" playing. And doing things (and engaging in mental visualizations) to reduce the effort required of the embouchure is helpful. But if you think the lips aren't being manipulated and that air pressure or tongue have any direct influence on pitch played then you are kidding yourself.


Thank you Darrell - Ill feel free to kid myself till it quits working. I really dont know what your ideas of methods of achieving your goals are, but mine is to play with as much ease as I can manage and with as full a sound as I can. Please remember I have only found a way to play with MUCH LESS tension for a few weeks. Perhaps I should say playing with much less manipulation of my lip area has made me feel that I am playing More tension less if that’s a more accurate way of saying it. I was most assuradely using too much lip manipulation and had little endurance and my range as it is was short lived. However I can also say this more relaxed state has allowed me to increase the time and intensity of my sessions, and sound has improved thru my full range. The quality of the scale has improved and I now see how the exercises I have been doing can now aid me toward my goals because I know what they are trying to accomplish. I didn’t say I had it all down, just much more relaxed lips under the mouthpiece. So excuse my probably overly enthusiastic posts lately, and realize that this feels like something really big to me, I feel like I will be able to go forth and wail to the public soon. I’m sure there will be plenty of tension before I go from hi f to double c with authority. I will certainly agree with you that the corners around the eyeteeth have a great deal of influence, but I’m kind of defining the lip as the area under the MP.
Rod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ljazztrm
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Dec 2001
Posts: 2681
Location: Queens and upstate, NY

PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Rod, sounds like you are doing a lot of good things! If you can do the whisper G with the teeth closed, even for 10 minutes, you are probably already very efficient and relaxed. I know the 19/30's and John Daniel's book is playing a big part. Keep us posted here on the TH, I find it interesting and helpful to learn of someone's results transitioning to more and more tensionless and relaxed playing. All the very best, Lex
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9828
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
There is no such thing as "effortless" playing. And doing things (and engaging in mental visualizations) to reduce the effort required of the embouchure is helpful. But if you think the lips aren't being manipulated and that air pressure or tongue have any direct influence on pitch played then you are kidding yourself.


+1

The goal is to play efficiently. That does not mean "effortlessly". To play efficiently means to have a well formed embouchure that responds well to the air, to have the correct tongue level for any particular note at any particular volume (not too little, but also not too much tongue arch), and to keep all uninvolved muscles of the body relaxed, even when blowing with maximum pressure during the playing of one's highest loud notes. Being efficient also means to create a maximum amount of output with the least effort possible. But that definition requires the items stated in the previous sentence.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9828
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod, here's my answer to your original question:

I started playing trumpet during the summer between second and third grades. By fifth grade (age 10) I could play a High C. My range stagnated for the most part from then until age 16. Then I bought Claude Gordon's books Systematic Approach to Daily Practice and Daily Trumpet Routines, along with the other books that Systematic Approach (SA) assigns material out of. Within a week or two of starting to use SA I was reaching D's and Eb's, but more important, my High C became more musical and always obtainable. I started studying in person with Claude during my Senior Year in High School and my range continued to slowly progress upward. I remember on my 18th birthday I reached a Double High C# during my practice of the Systematic Approach Part Two exercise I was on at the time, and by my early 20's, performance-wise, I had a good, usable F above High C.

At this point my range pretty much plateaued again. Through my 20's and 30's I could reach a Double C in practice, but my performance range ended at a full-power F# above High C (my G was weak and didn't like to slot and though I could usually slot a solid G# and even an A, they weren't very loud). I was satisfied with this range as it was more than adequate to make a living (Circus Tours, Studio Work and later Pit Orchestras). I was still studying with Claude, but truth be told, I often didn't get to, or skipped my Systematic Approach Part One and Two exercises when they were a part of my assigned Daily Routine because the routine was so long, there just wasn't enough time, or it would be too much practice when my work obligations were added.

In late 2004 (age 43) I decided to see how high I could build my range and I started again practicing the exercises in Systematic Approach every single day. Within a few months I had a full power G above High C, and within about 6 months I had a full power Double High C and could sometimes reach the G above Double High C during practice of the Part Two exercises. When I stopped practicing the SA exercises every day, it was kind of like Cinderella's Horses and Carriage at midnight - it all went away - except to this day I still have a good, consistent, full power G above High C and can usually reach a (fairly quiet) Double High C if I'm fresh.

In summary, I think for most people (assuming they are practicing the correct material properly) range builds up slowly over a long period of time. I think this is because it takes an unusual level of blowing strength to reach the notes above around High D. That strength must be developed and that takes time. One must also develop the feel or "knack" of how to play the highest notes - but one cannot develop that feel or knack until one has the prerequisite level of strength required to play those notes.

I hope you find this helpful.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was never trying to say that i had any secrets for range unlocked. I just meant that doing this exercise made an very big obstacle in my play start to disappear. I simply found that this exercise simply allowed the area directly under the mouthpiece to be responsive to everything else. I had apparently become obsessed by controlling the lip, didn’t fully understand where the corners were (I thought at edge of outer lip) and was allowing this fight to negate most other work I was doing. This is the ONLY reason I’m behind the exercise. It took one very tedious impediment away. The lack of tension I was addressing was in the lip area and how I was keeping the corners from working properly. Since I have done quite a bit of ‘blind’ work in the corners and air support I can now see how these exercises can work to help overall. Till I was able to get to an area of freedom with lip gyrations, I couldn’t feel these things. Ive said before I internalize by feel, and this is allowing me to FEEL these things. I never meant effortless to apply to everything trumpet, but if the lips are starting to respond to the air, corners, and tongue because of it - isn’t that a good thing. I never meant to say that this exercise took all the effort out of playing, but it pushed one big concern way down on my list.
Rod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also shouldn’t have posted this on the Range Forum it would fit best in fundamentals or Comeback where I’m barely qualified to post. It’s a fundamental thing I missed for a lot of years. Yeah I’d like to see it increase my range but its more about just playing better with more freedom, and getting an obstacle out of the way. It may have no help in getting me above my hi f but the help where I can play now was immediate and noticeable.
Rod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
INTJ
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 1986
Location: Northern Idaho

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Posting it here is good, because we can’t develop any range until we figure out how to get tension out of our chops. The exercise you found is obviously the correct visualization for you and many others. Good job!!
_________________
Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel

Harrelson 5mm MP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
deleted_user_fdb91a0
New Member


Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Removing tension from the lips and focusing on the tongue is a wise move.

There will be plenty of people who will tell you that the tongue can't apply physical leverage to the lips to provide easy access to the upper register. Those people are wrong, and their dogmatic thinking should be avoided like the plague.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drewwilkie86 wrote:
Removing tension from the lips and focusing on the tongue is a wise move.

There will be plenty of people who will tell you that the tongue can't apply physical leverage to the lips to provide easy access to the upper register. Those people are wrong, and their dogmatic thinking should be avoided like the plague.


I agree and try it all and try to keep what works. But then again I’m retired and have time and an inquisitive nature. For those who insist that things cant be effortless, take a look at Louis Dowedsdell (sp). He is making effort and getting tremendous sound and he is working much less than I do and he is doing 2 to 3 times more than I can. I’m willing to believe there is more than one way to skin the cat. Maybe some of the other things will be of more use to me later when this is down pat.
Rod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
fraserhutch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 2548
Location: Oakville, ON Canada

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drewwilkie86 wrote:
Removing tension from the lips and focusing on the tongue is a wise move.

There will be plenty of people who will tell you that the tongue can't apply physical leverage to the lips to provide easy access to the upper register. Those people are wrong, and their dogmatic thinking should be avoided like the plague.


Drew -
Maybe you've explained this before and if so, I apologize, but could you elaborate on the statement "apply physical leverage to the lips to provide easy access to the upper register"? I am not sure what you mean here.
_________________
Schilke B1
Callet Jazz
Scodwell Standard Bb
Roger Ingram 1600is
Wild Thing Flugel
Dillon Rotary Picc.
GR and Curry Mouthpieces
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
deleted_user_fdb91a0
New Member


Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
I agree and try it all and try to keep what works. But then again I’m retired and have time and an inquisitive nature. For those who insist that things cant be effortless, take a look at Louis Dowedsdell (sp). He is making effort and getting tremendous sound and he is working much less than I do and he is doing 2 to 3 times more than I can. I’m willing to believe there is more than one way to skin the cat. Maybe some of the other things will be of more use to me later when this is down pat.
Rod


Louis is a case study in efficiency being a function of embouchure technique. He is simply great. He looks physically bored, even in the upper register, because playing up there doesn't necessarily require tons of tension and air.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AlbertHwang
New Member


Joined: 28 Aug 2017
Posts: 10
Location: United States

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My "aha" moment was when I changed my embouchure to a slightly lower set position. It opened up a huge range of notes that I couldn't play previously. Of course, most things in trumpet are person-to-person, so I recommend looking around to see what works best for you.
_________________
Albert
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RandyTX
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Mar 2010
Posts: 5299
Location: Central Texas

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pops wrote:
By playing or trying to play hundreds of thousands of high notes.

When I got to where I could play 100 good high Cs or 200 bad ones I went to High D.
100 good High Ds or 200 whatever High Ds then I went to High E.

Fewer than 100 good High C,D,E...ones every day is too few.

Even if it is B or A below High C fewer than 100 a day is too few.

We gain control and power play playing LOTS of notes every day.

4 scales is playing the note 4 times. Tongue the note, slur to the note play a song that has that note 20 times like Fur Elise in the right key to make that note have 20 times.

Don't build a range flagpole. Build a range pyramid. Make a good solid base.


This is such fantastic advice... I think people may tend to look past it because it seems like too much work. Well, work is where you get the results, not by ordering a new gadget online.

I used to be the sort that avoided practicing 'upstairs' too much, thinking it would be detrimental. I only practiced the range I needed for an upcoming program, and that was about it.

Then I read a post like the one above from Pops. I thought it about it for a while and decided to give it a try, starting about a year back.

Now I'm playing in a RnB/Funk band which is basically a rhythm section, vocalists and a few horns and I have chops to play upstairs for three hours and still feel good to do it all over again the next day without feeling like I just went 12 rounds with Mike Tyson the night before.

He's right on the money here. Want to play high? Play high, every single day, as much as you can handle without wounding yourself. It's not instant, it's not easy, but it definitely works.
_________________
"Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There often exists a range ceiling in our embouchures. We won't know where it is until we spend perhaps several years exploring how to improve our technic upstairs.
Which can sometimes lead to the search for the perfect embouchure. Or the one without a range ceiling below some note like double C. From the vantage point of being a decent lead player but still with a somewhat nuisance of a ceiling in sound? I found just two proper paths to take,

1. Continue maintaining my "pretty good embouchure" as well as possible. And,

2. Search for a chop system which yields limitless range. ie usable Double C, with access to Triple C. Practice this in my spare time.


Mine was not a fast moving path. It seemed that all of the major systems failed as described by their authors. Even Stevens-Costello although it taught me much. Today I've found a variant of the Stevens System. It uses a pucker as opposed to a roll in although there is a little more to it than that.

As I enter my senior years I only wish that I could live longer in order to pass this concept (and others) on to my peers and friends. In fact much of my "advice" comes on the form of NEVER GIVING UP. Changing my embouchure again has been challenging. The first couple months I literally had to force myself to practice my new method. At least a half hour daily. I also had to prevent over-training. This always my arch nemesis. Even during those college years when I was learning my first high note chop setting.

It can take months for a new embouchure to start sounding believeable. Finally I'm starting to hear some "steel" in my tone. It's been an ordeal lemme tell yah.


I think the O/P is gonna do fine. I just hope that he too NEVER GIVES UP.

There is nothing so rewarding in the world than to conquer the trumpet. Esp adding musical notes to the upper register. Believe it or not some of the most practical information available comes from the late Maynard Ferguson videos. He couldnt teach us embouchure as he truly was a natural. However his breathing and stance video "how to's" really help turn what range you have into a much stronger performance. I always use Maynard's stance,

Feet spread apart even with shoulders,
Knees bent when blowing a G top of staff,
Gradually lean back as you ascend above the G top of staff. I almost never crack notes when playing this way. Or if I do? Its a "good miss".
And Maynard's advice doesnt cost anything. I also found Bill Chase's advice to be pretty much word for word the same as the boss.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maynard-46
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Oct 2002
Posts: 1842
Location: GEORGIA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:14 am    Post subject: how did the notes come to you Reply with quote

As soon as I started studying with Carmine Caruso. I was 19 years old...had a solid "D"...3 months later I had a solid double "A".

B
_________________
TRUMPE: SCHILKE B7 / Legends .585 "CatMaster" Top / KT "RT1" BB / Reeves #5.75 Sleeve.
FLUGELHORN: ADAMS Custom "F1" / Legends .585 "CatMaster FL.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drewwilkie86 wrote:
Removing tension from the lips and focusing on the tongue is a wise move.

There will be plenty of people who will tell you that the tongue can't apply physical leverage to the lips to provide easy access to the upper register. Those people are wrong, and their dogmatic thinking should be avoided like the plague.


Ive never even remotely suggested that a tongue movement can not assist in creating higher notes. My only complaint about those who promote the concept is that their explanation for why the tongue movement helps bring about higher notes is usually inaccurate.

I too oppose dogma however most of that Ive seen tends to appear to come from the tongue arch promoters. Not as you say those who oppose it.

That said? I agree that those who oppose using a tongue movement are often offbase. Each trumpet player ought to feel free to choose the system which works for him.

My belief about tongue arch and range is that the explanation provided by the advocates is usually wtong. Theirs tends to be the "faster air" concept. Which is a fine theory for whistlers abd flutes who utilize very open apertures for their sound production.

Trumpets who blow high notes however use very closed apertures. Where the air is divided between two radically different mediums,

A. Inside the mouth, throat and lungs. Where the air, compressed by the abdominal muscles and restrained by the lips or tongue is under a lot of pressure. Some of the highest pressures Ive measured hover between 6 to 8 psi. However gettigup arpund 8psi feels kida dangerous and probably ought be avoided. Maybe 8 is too high of pressure to be used. If someone vould blow a double C? Doing it with 8psi would produce and ungofly loud note. As well as much discofort to the trumpet player. And,

B. The air pressure inside the instrument. Which is barely more than the ambient psi at sea level. Due to the bell of the instrument remaiig open.

I dont see any "dogma" in my above remarks. In fact there isn't even the remotest suggestion not to use a tongue arch or other tongue movement to assist range production. Assuming that indeed does help a given trumpet player. In fact I can't remember seeing anyone even state that "the tongue arch shouldn't be used". Someone may have stated this but I didnt get that memo. My only objection to the advocates for tongue arch is that they use an explantion which is accurate for why their suggestion works. And tge teem "faster air" is easily proved to be inaccurate.

Again, please feel free to use a tongue arch or any other tongue movement which seems to assist in range production. However it would help if a better expanation for why this works is used. People could say,

"Well when I use a tongue movement it seems to assist my lips. Makes them feel and act stronger?

That is more than acceptable. It may not offer a perfect explanation but it doesn't have to. Plus it isn't wrong either. Another thought is,

"I don't know why using my tongue helps me play high notes but it certainly does and I'm pleased with tge results".

Again, a very acceptable explanation. It too doesn't explain exactly why the tongue movement works but it does note that it is beneficial. Nothing wrong with that either.

The only place where the tongue arch promoters go erong is by applying the "faster air" concept.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RandyTX
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Mar 2010
Posts: 5299
Location: Central Texas

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: how did the notes come to you Reply with quote

maynard-46 wrote:
As soon as I started studying with Carmine Caruso. I was 19 years old...had a solid "D"...3 months later I had a solid double "A".


Would you be willing to comment on what about his teaching you felt was the most productive to get those results? I'm mainly curious if you think it was primarily due to specific exercises, or some other aspect of his teaching.
_________________
"Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maynard-46
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Oct 2002
Posts: 1842
Location: GEORGIA

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:51 am    Post subject: How did the notes come to you? Reply with quote

Hi Randy,

Yours is a hard question but I'll try!! I started studying with Carmine after my first year in music school (Fredonia). I was working 6 nights a week on my summer vacation doing my 1st gig playing shows in one of the Catskill Mt. Hotels (upstate NY) ...which were big time in 1967 and I was very fortunate to get the gig! The guy that was playing lead was Carl Poole who was coming off his gig with the NY based Tonight Show band with Doc. I think he came up to the "cou try" to get out of the City and dry out as he was a VERY heavy drinker. Over the summer I got to know him pretty well. We would hang out at his house...play duets...and talk trumpet. GREAT experience for a 19 year old!! He wasn't a high note player (maybe Eb) but he had a gorgeous sound and NEVER missed a note!! During our talks he kept mentioning Carmine and telling me I should go see him. So...when I went back to school in the fall I decided to take a few lessons from Carmine. Now mind you...Fredonia College is upstate NY by Buffalo. I was working with a wedding/party band on weekends and, at that time, was making $16 for a 4 hour gig...lol!!! I would save the money and fly down to NY once every 3 weeks and take a lesson then fly back to school. Round trip red-eye flight could be had back them for $25!!!

The 1st couple of lessons I was pretty nervous but Carmine was such a nice guy along with hearing the other players struggling I quickly realized I wasn't alone!! He started me with the usual stuff...6 note exercise...intervals of a 2nd...harmonics...and the 1st chromatic pedal exercise. Since I was seeing him every 3 weeks I would work on the current lesson for that amount of time. As lessons progressed I could feel myself getting stronger...endurance was going thru the roof...and my range was increasing step by step. After about 3-4 months I had developed a pretty good/useable double "A". They upper notes first started coming in his exercises...especially the harmonic exercise...then in the intervals...then when the pedal exercises started expanding my entire range started expanding...even the low notes which I always had a hard time with. Alot of my personal success I really believe was due to the long-setting calisthenics so to speak. Keeping the mouthpiece on my chops I feel did wonders for me in all kinds of ways.

As time went on obviously the improvements slowed down a little and it was more about maintenance and keeping what I had. If I got in to a little funk I could always do the 6 note...soft-loud-soft ex., etc. and somehow they would ALWAYS straighten my chops out. The other kind of "hidden benefit" with his methods: it has always helped me adjust to a different resistance whether it be a mouthpiece or a horn change. They also told which piece of equipment WASN'T going to work for me!!

I ended up studying with Carmine for 5+ years and STILL do his routine to this day! I will admit though that at my age I don't do his full routine but over the course of a few days I will have covered most of his material. EVERY day I do his 6 note exercise, soft-loud-soft and loud-soft-loud exercise, harmonics usually to a double "C" and a couple of his pedal exercise. This seems to keep my chops pretty much straight most of the time.

I apologize for being so long-winded in my post but along with being very passionate about this method AND being forever grateful for having the opportunity to have studied with Carmine (thank you Carl Poole wherever you may be) I just felt it was important to include some background as to how I ended up with Carmine. I hoped this all helped if even in the smallest way!!!

Butch
_________________
TRUMPE: SCHILKE B7 / Legends .585 "CatMaster" Top / KT "RT1" BB / Reeves #5.75 Sleeve.
FLUGELHORN: ADAMS Custom "F1" / Legends .585 "CatMaster FL.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trumpetteacher1
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3398
Location: Garland, Texas

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Butch, very nice post!

Jeff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> High Range Development All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group