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Bulgakov Regular Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2017 Posts: 61
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:05 pm Post subject: Trumpet transposition question for Haydn 104 |
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Hello,
Apologies for a very basic question...
I've been drafted to be the music librarian in my community orchestra. It is becoming pretty par for the course that anything we download from IMSLP requires some transposing. Alas, I was not a music major and my understanding of keys and transposition is rudimentary at best. For the most part, that is not problematic using Sibelius, however, I am really confused by the D trumpet parts in Haydn 104.
Looking at the score, in the first 17 bars of the piece, the key is F before changing to D. Yet, the D instruments start in their key of C, and continue in C at the key change. Shouldn't they be in e-flat until the key change?
Help?
Here is a link to the score on IMSLP:
http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/5/54/IMSLP494053-PMLP07948-593_IMSLP463592-PMLP752803-symphonies00haydbw.pdf |
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OldHorn Regular Member
Joined: 26 Dec 2017 Posts: 90
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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The D trumpet (and the horns) are written without a key signature throughout. They are written using all accidentals. Even when other instruments like flute and piano have a new key, the trumpet doesn't. The trumpet transposition stays the same . (written one whole step lower than where it sounds)
If you're entering this into Sibelius, setup your Sib. score with D trumpets, IMO you can use a trumpet key signature. as long as everhthing stays the same chromatically. When you're done, I would probably switch them to Bb or C trumpets for your community orchestra, depending on what's available. |
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Bulgakov Regular Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2017 Posts: 61
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you very much. That was really helpful, and I can now get started on this.
:D |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2157 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Trumpet transposition question for Haydn 104 |
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Bulgakov wrote: | It is becoming pretty par for the course that anything we download from IMSLP requires some transposing. |
Are you saying that you want to hand out parts to your trumpet players so that they read the music as written (so the trumpet players do no transposing) and all of your trumpet players are playing Bb trumpets?
I have some questions:-Do all of your trumpet players only use Bb trumpets in your orchestra, or do some use C trumpets (or even other keyed trumpets)?
-Do you have any trumpet players who would prefer to read from the original part in D (they do the transposing in their head)?
In the various community orchestras I've played in over the decades, we were given the original part and sometimes the part transposed for Bb trumpet. I don't remember ever being given only a transposed part.
Or am I making all kinds of assumptions and I'm totally missing what's going on? I apologize if that is the case. |
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Bulgakov Regular Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2017 Posts: 61
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Trumpet transposition question for Haydn 104 |
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Jerry wrote: | Bulgakov wrote: | It is becoming pretty par for the course that anything we download from IMSLP requires some transposing. |
Are you saying that you want to hand out parts to your trumpet players so that they read the music as written (so the trumpet players do no transposing) and all of your trumpet players are playing Bb trumpets?
I have some questions:-Do all of your trumpet players only use Bb trumpets in your orchestra, or do some use C trumpets (or even other keyed trumpets)?
-Do you have any trumpet players who would prefer to read from the original part in D (they do the transposing in their head)?
In the various community orchestras I've played in over the decades, we were given the original part and sometimes the part transposed for Bb trumpet. I don't remember ever being given only a transposed part.
Or am I making all kinds of assumptions and I'm totally missing what's going on? I apologize if that is the case. |
Thanks for responding, but the first poster told me everything I needed to know. Simply: The original part is for Trumpet in D. I enter it into Sibelius and alter it so that it works for a B-Flat trumpet, since that is all we have and the players do not have to transpose in their heads.
What I did not realize, and what OldHorn clarified, was that D trumpet parts are written like horn parts with accidentals rather than key signatures. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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The original part is written with just accidentals, but there's nothing that says that you can't write them with key signatures. Since you're adapting them already, I would personally use key signatures. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Bulgakov Regular Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2017 Posts: 61
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | The original part is written with just accidentals, but there's nothing that says that you can't write them with key signatures. Since you're adapting them already, I would personally use key signatures. |
That's the plan |
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trumpetchops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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I know you didn't ask this.
Some of playing with the community band is to make music and some to have friends and some to learn. There aren't many notes to worry about. I would give them the D parts. If they're playing C trumpets it's a transposition either way. If they moan about it, then give the B-flat parts. _________________ Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2660 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:21 am Post subject: |
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As my community orchestra is preparing this right now - we gave the trumpets the original D parts. Even our second player, an old jazzer will transpose, practice the part so he knows it and not bother about getting transposed parts with extra errors, possibly not laid out well, etc. etc. etc.
the preoccupation with changing the original parts is simply a waste of time in my opinion. The layers can learn to cope, if you let them. If they whinge, look for less thingy people!
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
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Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:52 am Post subject: |
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There are only 5 or so different notes in the entire piece. I think the quickest approach is just to learn to read in D. It's just bass clef (if you know how to read that) with an adjusted key signature if you're playing Bb. Otherwise, use the computer, but it's really quicker to just learn those 5 notes. |
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Nonsense Eliminator Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 5212 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:00 am Post subject: |
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JoseLindE4 wrote: | There are only 5 or so different notes in the entire piece. I think the quickest approach is just to learn to read in D. It's just bass clef (if you know how to read that) with an adjusted key signature if you're playing Bb. Otherwise, use the computer, but it's really quicker to just learn those 5 notes. |
My sentiments exactly.
There is music where I can understand needing to write it out. Heck, there is music where working professionals sometimes write it out or write in a note or a fingering here or there. But for pieces like this, it's quite straightforward to play from the original — the total time invested is much, much less than preparing new parts. _________________ Richard Sandals
NBO |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:10 am Post subject: |
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If part of your goal is to develop and educate then, by all means, write in D.
But if you're an arranger, part of whose reputation depends on quick results that work well first time out, then write the easiest way for the players.
The easier it is for them, the better they will play the first time out, and the better you will look. And the more confident you may feel. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Bulgakov Regular Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2017 Posts: 61
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Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Andy Del wrote: | As my community orchestra is preparing this right now - we gave the trumpets the original D parts. Even our second player, an old jazzer will transpose, practice the part so he knows it and not bother about getting transposed parts with extra errors, possibly not laid out well, etc. etc. etc.
the preoccupation with changing the original parts is simply a waste of time in my opinion. The layers can learn to cope, if you let them. If they whinge, look for less thingy people!
cheers
Andy |
This is a real amateur orchestra, with a wide range of abilities. We do well with what we have, but we are also a place that welcomes new players--no audition required.
I am one of the them. I've been playing trumpet for all of a year and a half (six months if you count the 6-year break), and right now, I'd like to read it in B-Flat.
Why is there this assumption that people are whingeing or any of that? Nobody is whingeing. I offered to do it this time around, and we take it in turns to do this when need arises. We are all learners, and we may get there eventually. For the moment, this works for us.
I don't think we should assume that people are always going to complain. I am sorry if others have had bad experiences. That is not the case here.
Besides, doing this is teaching me a lot about notation.
I appreciate folks want to help and pitch in, but sometimes it is enough to have a simple question answered--which OldHorn did clearly and concisely--without speculating on the trumpet section's motivations, my motivations, assuming it will be full of errors etc.
I apologize if I am coming across as ungrateful. I don't mean to be. In pasts posts forum members, including many posting here, have given me fabulous, detailed advice. I really appreciate all the assistance I have received. But in this case, I truly have what I need to proceed. |
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OldHorn Regular Member
Joined: 26 Dec 2017 Posts: 90
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Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Bulgakov,
Good luck with your notation project. And don't forget to proofread your work. I hate doing it, but it always turns out to be well worth my time. And what works best for me is to physically print the parts out and proof them. Things look differently onscreen and can be missed. |
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Bulgakov Regular Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2017 Posts: 61
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Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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OldHorn wrote: | Bulgakov,
Good luck with your notation project. And don't forget to proofread your work. I hate doing it, but it always turns out to be well worth my time. And what works best for me is to physically print the parts out and proof them. Things look differently onscreen and can be missed. |
At one time I worked as a copy-editor. I'm pretty good in that department :-) |
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