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How long and how much?



 
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epoustoufle
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Joined: 07 Nov 2015
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Location: France

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:29 am    Post subject: How long and how much? Reply with quote

I've written in a past thread how I've switched to a Callet-like embouchure with tongue against the front teeth. It's coming on 11 months and since about month 3 or 4 I have been pretty much satisfied I'm on track. The tonguing and sound is crisp but I've had difficulties with long notes and slurs. However these are coming along slowly.

I'm curious about people's timelines with this embouchure change.

It feels toe me like the basic mechanics of the technique come within a short space of time - a few weeks - but you can't play anything other than staccato notes for months. Long tones came at about 6-7 months and lip slurs are only just happening for me at 10 months.

I play about 20 mins on weekdays and an hour+ on Sat/Sun... gotta keep up the day job! The muscle fatigue on Sunday/Monday feels good, much like the day after a gym workout. I can also see muscle growth around my lips.

I'm wondering if the rate of progress is determined by muscle development. Essentially you need to double the size of certain muscles. This takes a minimum amount of time even with the best motivation and practice regimen.

Thoughts on timelines and quantity of practice?
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the risk of being corrected I'm going to comment that Bahb Civiletti's approach to teaching the TCE, which is different to how Jerry now teaches Superchops, includes slurring and tonguing exercises from the start. I can't really see why the ability to play longer notes would be a problem.

I understand that playing longer tones without the tongue receding in the mouth (and without noticing that this is happening) may be hard at first, but that it the reason that there are exercises that directly address the issue.

I agree that the basic mechanics are quick to learn - for me it was a habit after a few weeks, but it took about 4 months to be using TCE at all times. My TCE pupils show improvement quickly and development of range and power after about a month.

In terms of muscle development the one you need to be concerned about training is the tongue and after almost a year I think that you should be able to have tracked a path of progress that you can continue by the use of exercises and/or studies. Having a warmup routine of Einsetzen/Ansetzen exercises will help the muscles of the face to do the right thing.
_________________
What to understand TCE? Read this website: http://tonguecontrolled.info/
5-octave warm-up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH4yJVfbE_I
Online lessons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukUH6N5lS5o
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epoustoufle
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Joined: 07 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
With the risk of being corrected I'm going to comment that Bahb Civiletti's approach to teaching the TCE, which is different to how Jerry now teaches Superchops, includes slurring and tonguing exercises from the start. I can't really see why the ability to play longer notes would be a problem.

I understand that playing longer tones without the tongue receding in the mouth (and without noticing that this is happening) may be hard at first, but that it the reason that there are exercises that directly address the issue.

I agree that the basic mechanics are quick to learn - for me it was a habit after a few weeks, but it took about 4 months to be using TCE at all times. My TCE pupils show improvement quickly and development of range and power after about a month.

In terms of muscle development the one you need to be concerned about training is the tongue and after almost a year I think that you should be able to have tracked a path of progress that you can continue by the use of exercises and/or studies. Having a warmup routine of Einsetzen/Ansetzen exercises will help the muscles of the face to do the right thing.


OK wow 4 months! And 1 month for students. That's fast.

Yes, I've been working from a book of studies (easy ones). I also know Arban studies 1-13 by heart but I can't play those. It's been a slow development with slurs. It's like I don't know which muscle to use to make it happen. It's coming along now but not through conscious knowledge. I simply found the low C#-F# slur on 123 "worked" and have taken it to 13, 12, 1, etc. and the next harmonic.

I'll keep on it, almost ready to post a video
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please be aware of exactly what I said, which was basically that pupils who were set specific exercises noticed improvements in power and range. This is not outrageous at all when you consider that showing somebody TCE can bring instant improvement if they've come from a point of no knowledge. The real work is in building good habits.

As for the exercises I refer to, I'm talking about those from the TCE Training Manual, TCE Power Training, and my own work. I have a bunch of things that I'm working on that I'm refining through my work with TCE pupils.
Harmonic movements as you describe are a fundamental part of learning to feel which muscles are doing the work with this technique, but I think you may need some more specific instruction if you don't want to be back here asking similar questions in 6 or 9 month's time.
_________________
What to understand TCE? Read this website: http://tonguecontrolled.info/
5-octave warm-up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH4yJVfbE_I
Online lessons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukUH6N5lS5o
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epoustoufle
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So another 4 months pass and it's time to post again

Just to recap, I switched wholesale to a Superchops/TCE embouchure about 15 months ago and have been able to commit about 20min a day to practice. The basic mechanics are reasonably simple and I don't feel I have altered from the spit-buzz since about week 2 but getting results on the horn has taken longer.

The last 3 months have been fairly good. I don't have any range to speak of - just in the staff - but sustained notes and slurs are not a problem any more. I've been edging towards a mouthpiece safari reluctantly... I picked up an SC4 but just don't like the sound at all and have more or less settled on a Marcink 1/5b which is the polar opposite of the SC4 - deep cup and thin sharp rim. Honorable mentions to Bach 7D and 7BW. Basically all over the map, other than I gotta have a sharp rim!

Regardless of mouthpiece, I don't have any range beyond G on top of the staff. What excercises do you guys to do to build range? I can hit very short repeated staccato notes up to high C, D but wondered if this was useful. Or I could sustain long notes from middle C up, or do lip slurs. Or play pedals. I currently do a little of all, probably more emphasis on playing mid-range sustained notes to exhaustion.

What are some good practice ideas for beginner/intermediate TCE players?
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tptguy
Jerome Callet Forum Moderator


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't wish to be harsh in any way, but if you are still limited to a top of staff G then you are considerably off the MSC track in one or more ways. Your perceptions of mouthpiece sound and chops-feel are also contrary to normal MSC development. To start, who is your teacher and how often do you meet with him/her?
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

epoustoufle wrote:
Basically all over the map, other than I gotta have a sharp rim!

Consider contacting James R. New to have him make you a custom mouthpiece. I'll bet he can take your favorite stock Callet Superchops cup/backbore/throat and match a sharp rim to it. Since he manufactures the Superchops mouthpieces, I'd bet this should be fairly easy for him to do.

Jim does impeccable work and his prices are very reasonable.
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epoustoufle
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tptguy wrote:
Don't wish to be harsh in any way, but if you are still limited to a top of staff G then you are considerably off the MSC track in one or more ways. Your perceptions of mouthpiece sound and chops-feel are also contrary to normal MSC development. To start, who is your teacher and how often do you meet with him/her?


Thanks for your reply, not harsh at all - I appreciate any comments. If I may ask, how long did it take you and how much did you practice before you had success with your TCE transition?

As far as TCE teacher, I don't have one. I'm going by sound and feel as well as Jerry's video and book. And of course this forum

As I mentioned, from the rate of progress, it seems like a muscle building limitation rather than looking for the magic tongue position that gives instant results. Progress is slow and steady, with aching tongue and diaphragm indicating these areas are being worked out. As an analogy: how long does it take to significantly increase the size of your biceps? We'd be talking months and years. The tongue is surely no different.

I guess I'm looking in this thread for thoughts that confirm or contradict my experience so far. Very often posters effectively say: shut up, go get a good teacher, stop wasting time with your questions. Nice. I'll tell you, I've had "good teachers". In fact, we on this Callet forum more than any other are all recovering from "good teachers". I'm not here to find a teacher... or buy a custom mouthpiece for that matter!
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Justus
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Joined: 19 Mar 2017
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Location: UK/Germany

PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tptguy wrote:
Your perceptions of mouthpiece sound and chops-feel are also contrary to normal MSC development.


Out of curiosity: Do you really consider sharp rims contrary to MSC development? Similarly put, does a broad rim help MSC development or are the rims of Callets mouthpieces only so broad to allow players with thick lips to play them in spite of the small cup?

For the record: I own a 1SS and use it for practicing purposes only since the sound is too bright for me. However, what annoys me most about it happens to be the extremely broad rim.
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tptguy
Jerome Callet Forum Moderator


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd estimate that 4 weeks of careful MSC practice will result in enough knack, feel, and muscle development to put a solid top-of-staff G in the toolbox of most students, especially if they've been introduced to MSC early in their development. Each additional whole step through 2nd ledger line C could reasonably take an additional 2 weeks. But, deeply ingrained bad habits can take more time to overcome because they make it that much harder to get on and stay on the right track.

I've never heard a suggestion that Jerry's wider rims are intended more for thicker lips. Jerry has thin lips. I also have thin lips. The normal progression I see with MSC is towards a wider, more comfortable, more neutral rim. As arm pressure decreases both the need and desire to pin the lips also seem to decrease. The sharper the rim the more it likes to pin. At any rate, that's been my experience.
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