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Pines of Rome buccine parts: slur or not?



 
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mcgee
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:44 am    Post subject: Pines of Rome buccine parts: slur or not? Reply with quote

In the last movement after rehearsal 20, measures 5, 6, 11 and 12, the parts have a slur into the first note of the triplet. The score does not.

Most recordings I've heard omit the slurs, but Toscanini -- who conducted the American premiere -- has them slur it, and in a pronounced way.

What's the consensus?
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mhenrikse
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:43 am    Post subject: Re: Pines of Rome buccine parts: slur or not? Reply with quote

mcgee wrote:
In the last movement after rehearsal 20, measures 5, 6, 11 and 12, the parts have a slur into the first note of the triplet. The score does not.

Most recordings I've heard omit the slurs, but Toscanini -- who conducted the American premiere -- has them slur it, and in a pronounced way.

What's the consensus?


No slur in any of the times I've played it with professional orchestras.
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trpt2
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom, it's been a long time!!

Tongued, definitely

Bob
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Pines of Rome buccine parts: slur or not? Reply with quote

mcgee wrote:
Most recordings I've heard omit the slurs...

...

What's the consensus?


I believe you knew it all along.
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Rompson
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has caught my interest. Anyone know why the slurs aren't played? I always liked the Toscanini version and the slurs are right there in the part. Why go against the composer's intentions?
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mcgee
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to see your name pop up here, Bob!

So a followup question for everybody: When and why did the quintuplets become a duplet followed by a triplet?

We could have a whole thread about performance practice issues, where tradition overrules the printed score (or parts, or both).
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mcgee
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: Pines of Rome buccine parts: slur or not? Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
mcgee wrote:
Most recordings I've heard omit the slurs...

...

What's the consensus?


I believe you knew it all along.


Just wanted to be sure!
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgee wrote:
So a follow-up (sic) question for everybody:

Not so fast. I think the following question is very important.
Rompson wrote:
Why go against the composer's intentions?

I would like to know the rationale for an instrumentalist being able to override a composer like Respighi.
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps the bit where the score doesn't match the part.
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Rompson
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RandyTX wrote:
Perhaps the bit where the score doesn't match the part.


Haha well never mind then. Now I see.
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mcgee
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then the plot thickens. A set of parts is included in the rental set that isn't in the score at all. This is an edge case of the score and parts not matching.

There is an extra trumpet IV part, and horns V and VI (and maybe a trombone part?) to be used when insufficient players are available to play the buccine parts offstage. The printed parts for trumpets II and II (at least) have a line of cues to be played in that case. This is all laid out in another thread somewhere here on trumpetherald.com that I don't have time to search for.

But in any event, none of them show the quintuplet as a duplet followed by a triplet.
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shermantrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When conductors feel it might be cleaner/more together, they ask to have the quintuplets played as twos and threes.

I have more often played them (been asked to play them) as quintuplets, but have also been asked to play duple/triple. A decent ensemble can easily play them as notated. I've always assumed conductors who ask for duple/triple had a bad experience with a weak orchestra early on or had a conducting teacher who taught them to ask for that as a way of making it easier.

If at all possible, play them as quintuplets.
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Rompson
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While we are at it, I just looked at the score and the buccine parts are also marked Flicorno Soprano (Flugelhorn) and Flicorno Tenore (Tenor/baritone horn). How dare we have the audacity in 2018 to play these parts on trumpets and trombones.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RandyTX wrote:
Perhaps the bit where the score doesn't match the part.
Randy, do I understand, then, that the score contained separated notes, while the parts, wrongly, had slurs?
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