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andybharms
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 May 2009
Posts: 632
Location: Boston, MA
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 Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:03 am Post subject: |
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As a fan of Will's instruments, as well as many of the other hand-made micro brands, you should know that there are some trade-offs.
Especially Yamaha has it pretty much figured out. Some people have said they don't have character, but I find this more true about the player (sorry for the burn.... just my opinion....). They hand-make and hand-finish everything that a human can do better than a machine, but machines do everything with perfect accuracy in a way a human can't. So in many ways it is the best of both.And the new lineup, Mk II Xenos, and everything Bob and Wayne and the rest of their team have done for them... they are incredible instruments made by people with a drive to get it right. And of course the current generation of Bachs are really amazing instruments as well. I played a 190 a few months ago that was handily the best Bb I've ever played.
Other brands are doing a good job, too, of course. They are making great trumpets and there is some satisfaction knowing you are playing something someone built by hand, and of course supporting them is great. But I think an inherent trade-off is that small operations have a different scale for consistency.
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Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com |
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Andy Del
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2662
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:04 am Post subject: Re: English handmade trumpets? |
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| richarddownunder wrote: | | So, finally, my (possibly naive) question is, what is the advantage of bying a mass-produced instrument (e.g. a Xeno) over, say, a Will Spencer Bb (I think the Taylor instruments might be a bit higher price and probably out of my budget). Does anyone here play a Will Spencer trumpet and how do they compare...he seems to have a good reputation. There is also the Eclipse range at 2500 pounds which look nice on their web site.
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The while answer to this is very long winded, but can be seen in many places, where playing an unusual brand (Eclipse is unusual, as it is not common down under) can be seen as not blending in with the section / expectations, etc. etc. Call it snobbery, or even inverse snobbery if you like.
The most common brands you see are Bach and Yamaha. They play well, no question. Most players play them.
As a veritable snob, I own zero Bach or Yamaha instruments out of about 50 horns. The reason why is every time I pick up one of them, I'm not happy. In my opinion, my Kanstul Bb blows them all out of the water. But, stand out from the crowd and you may be isolated as well. this is very common at college or in a... brass band.
On the other hand, a hand made custome trumpet is not the same as the last one. I have a really high end trumpet, purchased to match a colleague's, which is not only different in the final set up, but it is actually quite unplayable - very high pitched. And blows way too open. It's wandering back to the workshop (they are too small for the term factory) to have some work done, the pitch brought down from a high European setting and then, fingers crossed, it will be a knockout! I hope...
So, but what you like, and be prepared for comments from all sides - good and bad. In the end, who cares if you like the horn?
cheers
Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes... |
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richarddownunder
Regular Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2018
Posts: 78
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:37 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the comments folk. Some things to think about. I think at the level of band I'm playing in, there wouldn't be too much snobbery or fitting in problems. For me, the biggest issue is not being able to try the trumpet out. However, the Eclipse interchangeable lead pipe does help in that regard. I'm hoping to try a range of other instruments locally before I decide. I guess supporting the small guy and owning something hand-made (largely) appeals (being someone who hand makes stuff myself).
Cheers
Richard |
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stumac
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 697
Location: Flinders, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Richard,
if you are ever in Melbourne, you are welcome to try my Eclipse MS, the model with the rimless bell with 6 leadpipes and my Taylor Chicago Magnum Max, both superb horns.
Regards, Stuart. |
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Rapier232
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 1322
Location: Twixt the Moor and the Sea, UK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| richarddownunder wrote: | Thanks for the comments folk. Some things to think about. I think at the level of band I'm playing in, there wouldn't be too much snobbery or fitting in problems. For me, the biggest issue is not being able to try the trumpet out. However, the Eclipse interchangeable lead pipe does help in that regard. I'm hoping to try a range of other instruments locally before I decide. I guess supporting the small guy and owning something hand-made (largely) appeals (being someone who hand makes stuff myself).
Cheers
Richard |
The Smith-Watkins trumpets also use interchangeable lead pipes. Varying from lead to orchestral. They are becoming quite common amongst pro players in the U.K. The trumpet section for the John Wilson Orchestra all use them. (Lots of videos of them on YouTube, playing at the Proms Concerts).
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"Nearly as good as I need to be. Not nearly as good as I want to be".
Smith-Watkins Bb
Will Spencer Bb
Eclipse Flugel
Smith Watkins K2 Cornet
JP152 C Trumpet
Besson Bugle |
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richarddownunder
Regular Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2018
Posts: 78
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| Rapier232 wrote: | | richarddownunder wrote: | Thanks for the comments folk. Some things to think about. I think at the level of band I'm playing in, there wouldn't be too much snobbery or fitting in problems. For me, the biggest issue is not being able to try the trumpet out. However, the Eclipse interchangeable lead pipe does help in that regard. I'm hoping to try a range of other instruments locally before I decide. I guess supporting the small guy and owning something hand-made (largely) appeals (being someone who hand makes stuff myself).
Cheers
Richard |
The Smith-Watkins trumpets also use interchangeable lead pipes. Varying from lead to orchestral. They are becoming quite common amongst pro players in the U.K. The trumpet section for the John Wilson Orchestra all use them. (Lots of videos of them on YouTube, playing at the Proms Concerts). |
Thanks...I'll look into that...and there is a local agent too which makes it easier, although the more I read of the Eclipse Celeste CLS, the more I think that might be the one.
Cheers
Richard |
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richarddownunder
Regular Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2018
Posts: 78
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| stumac wrote: | Richard,
if you are ever in Melbourne, you are welcome to try my Eclipse MS, the model with the rimless bell with 6 leadpipes and my Taylor Chicago Magnum Max, both superb horns.
Regards, Stuart. |
Thanks for the offer Stuart. Don't know when I'll be in that direction (although i do go to melbourne occasionally for work) but will bear it in mind.  |
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wee steve
Regular Member
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 76
Location: Cornwall UK
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:03 am Post subject: |
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I don’t think you can go wrong with a Eclipse CLS if you play lots of styles go MY bell, if you play mainly jazz go for a MR Bell and if you love being a complete beast or playing mainly lead in a big band go LY. I have gone MY and I love it. The Smith Watkins are great horns too but I think kanstul actually makes them or at least they used to.
_________________
Eclipse Celeste MY 2023
B & S Challenger flugelhorn
Previous horns:
Eclipse Celeste CLS MY
Eclipse LY (rear tuned)
Bach ML37
B & S Challenger ii |
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richarddownunder
Regular Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2018
Posts: 78
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| wee steve wrote: | | I don’t think you can go wrong with a Eclipse CLS if you play lots of styles go MY bell, if you play mainly jazz go for a MR Bell and if you love being a complete beast or playing mainly lead in a big band go LY. I have gone MY and I love it. The Smith Watkins are great horns too but I think kanstul actually makes them or at least they used to. |
That seems to be the consensus - cant go wrong with an Eclipse (I think the MY CLS). They also offer the Enigma which seems to be the flagship model, but its the same price as the celeste - haven't figured that out yet. What mouthpiece do you find works well with the Eclipse...I suppose that is more personal preference, but do some mouthpieces suit some instruments better than others. I am currently on a Denis Wick 4.
Cheers
Richard |
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TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| richarddownunder wrote: |
That seems to be the consensus - cant go wrong with an Eclipse (I think the MY CLS). They also offer the Enigma which seems to be the flagship model, but its the same price as the celeste - haven't figured that out yet. What mouthpiece do you find works well with the Eclipse...I suppose that is more personal preference, but do some mouthpieces suit some instruments better than others. I am currently on a Denis Wick 4.
Cheers
Richard |
It's very personal - as an all-round instrument the MY and MR are the most versatile bells, the larges are gorgeous and suit certain players better, but the mediums are the bigger sellers I believe.
The only difference between the Enigma and Celeste are the tuning slide setup - the Enigma is a reversed pipe, the Celeste is traditional... Same bell options on both.
The Enigma is CLS (changeable leadpipes) just like the Celeste CLS is - there's a special pipe for the Celeste, but the others (4T, 2T, 0, 20, 40) are the same pipes and work brilliantly on both (haven't tried the Celeste pipe in an enigma myself).
If you tend to prefer reversed pipes then go Enigma, if you prefer traditional then go Celeste CLS - they're both a joy to play IMVBO. |
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wee steve
Regular Member
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 76
Location: Cornwall UK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:09 am Post subject: |
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TKSop is correct there is no difference in standard of Enigma and Celeste, the Celeste is actually the latest model, the Enigma was hailed as the flagship on the website before the Celeste came along. The celeste is double braced too which gives a slight heavier feel like a bach.
_________________
Eclipse Celeste MY 2023
B & S Challenger flugelhorn
Previous horns:
Eclipse Celeste CLS MY
Eclipse LY (rear tuned)
Bach ML37
B & S Challenger ii |
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richarddownunder
Regular Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2018
Posts: 78
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks folk. That has cleared up my misunderstanding, sounds like the celeste is the way to go. After last nights band practice, I also need a horn that can sight read for me and play those horrible chromatic runs with one note missing.  . Hope it can do that! 
Cheers
Richard |
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